Constant Combat

Smoking and Joking with Abu Samra - Joe Latham (part 2 of 2)

• Ramadi Podcast

Share episode

Send us a text

In part 2, Joe walks us down some school of hard knocks education from Ramadi 2004, where platoons welded armor and learned tactics under fire, to later deployments with drones, MRAPs, and precision fires, and how those lessons shaped his leadership and training. 
From LCpl Latham to SSgt Latham: he learned counterinsurgency in real time, codified lessons, and handed a better playbook to those who followed.
Stories range from a Nokia-triggered IED and an overpowered breach, to a Javelin through a window, all grounded by humility and a focus on legacy over accolades.

• Lioness teams engaging and the tempo of constant firefights
• near misses from IEDs, RPGs, and landmines, and the cost of contact
• transition from improvised armor to MRAPs, drones, and HIMARS
• calling fires, precision targeting, and the maturation of tactics
• government center escorts, leadership presence, and media on patrol
• personal boundaries with memory, privacy, and why legacy matters
• training platoons hard to save lives and pass on hard-won lessons
• awards, recognition gaps, and valuing bonds over medals


To read an excellent book by our guest, now known as Dr. Latham, check this link: https://a.co/d/hRpn0cM

----------------------------------------------
If you like what you heard, please subscribe on your favorite podcast service or follow our webpage for direct downloads @ https://www.buzzsprout.com/2525088

If you are a member of Weapons Company or someone with a story about Weapons Company 2/4 in 2004, please come tell some stories with us - 20 mins or 20 hours! Help paint the canvas of an archival story for others to know what it was like. Contact us @ RamadiPodcast@gmail.com, or via the podcast website above.

All music used with permission by soundbay: https://www.youtube.com/@soundbay_RFM

SPEAKER_01:

This is part two of our interview with Joe Latham from Mobile Assault Platoon 3.

SPEAKER_00:

Damn man. Did your platoon travel much outside of the AO? Did you guys do any runs up to uh any of the further ones?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, some of those air bases to TQ, right? Ticatum Airbase. That was our favorite show hall to go to. Yeah. Love that show hall. And um I remember I think we did something with lionesses one time. Remember you guys have the lionesses attached to you?

SPEAKER_01:

So I I I didn't have them much, but uh Blake's platoon definitely did.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we had um one time where we got in um a firefight, and this lady was in the Marine Corps Times also. It was it was funny. So um we get in uh a firefight engagement, and then we were able to see where the enemy was at, and it was just this huge open field. So the trucks had the ability to bounce, you know what I mean? So one was laying suppressive fire, another truck was maneuvering forward. Rapazo said, Latham, go provide overwatch, take them with you. I was like, What? All right, so we just go into somebody's random house, we go up to the very top, and I'm sitting there with these lionesses, and they're like, Can we shoot? I was like, Yeah, yeah, go ahead, shoot. And so they just start engaging the enemy, having fun, you know what I mean? These these women Marines, and they was like, This is so cool. Did I hit one? I was like, Yeah, yeah, you you got them. It's most likely the machine gunner. I mean, it was Brown and Kelly, and those snipers with the Mark 19, you know, or the machine gun systems, but they were up there providing Overwatch. And for me, I think during that time frame, shooting somebody with my rifle was just like boring too. You know, I mean, I didn't get anything out of it at that time anymore.

SPEAKER_01:

You had already been engaged so much.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I was like, Oh, yeah, go ahead, you shoot. I was like, they're gonna get them, anyways. I remember Sergeant Major Mack. Was that his name? Uh first Sergeant Mack. Now, I mean he retired Sergeant Major, yeah. First Sergeant Mac was there too, and he was bounding with the trucks, so he was like bounding behind the trucks. I mean, he's a truck into it of himself, yeah. You gentlemen, right? And he he was bounding, the trucks were bounding. He was, and I'm just sitting there laughing because first sergeant Mac is bounding with the trucks. These um women Marines are sitting there engaging the enemy, giving each other high fives because they killed the enemy. I think it was just a good time. So I just like to sit there and just observe what was going on around because shooting people. I mean, if I wasn't like in a direct line of fire, I mean, I wasn't getting anything out of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Was that the time afterwards?

SPEAKER_01:

Was that the engagement where you guys had the the snipers that had belted themselves in the top of the palm trees?

SPEAKER_02:

No, that was a different one.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh I had we had a lot of engagements during that deployment. Dude, you you uh we towards like July, I think it was, yeah, uh, I took a visit, and I think I think Gunny Crutcher was there, and I know Lieutenant Stevens was there, and we asked for the data and the run sheets of who were the most who were the busiest platoons, and it it was your platoon and my platoon were the busiest as far as the deployment goes. And it was like basically the same amount of number of engagements and and number of task orders and all that, and it was it was an obscene number.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yeah, it was like your platoon was either out or our platoon was either out. It was like back and forth, right? Yeah, and then you guys come back, you'd be talking about an engagement, the same thing, you know. We'd meet in the middle of the hooch and be like, yeah, what happened, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, and try to talk about, and I I do remember that actually. It was a weird, like Lance Corporal Underground level of intel. Like, this is where we got engaged, pointing to it on the map. They looked like this, they had this, and you're like, Oh, yeah, we saw some shit like that the other day. And it's like, okay, great.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly, exactly. And I think I remember, I don't know if it was you because majority of the company was white, so all you guys kind of look alike to me. We do all look alike, yeah. But you were in the gun turret once when we when you when there was an explosion that happened.

SPEAKER_01:

Is that correct? Probably not. I rarely was in the turret, but it did happen a few times.

SPEAKER_02:

I swear it was you. You were in the turret and the explosion happened, and I looked at you and I was like deathly worried that you were dead. But you gave me a thumbs up. I was like, Not only you good, and you're like, but your eyes were like wide open.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know if it was you again. Too many white people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's right. We all look the same.

SPEAKER_02:

Especially when you put a helmet on us. Exactly. Helmet, goggles behind a gun, but I'm pretty sure I'm about 99% sure it was you. You were in the gun that day. Did you get a purple heart? Yes. When?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, my first one was March 18th, uh, from an IED. Uh, when we were going out to the town that was right next to the Habanya Dam, it was basically almost Habanya. And I got hit by an IED in the middle of the night on the way there. And then uh I technically could have gotten a second and a third, but I refused both of those.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And I think that was one of them. I I don't think you were in the turret that day. I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01:

I wasn't in the turret when I got the first one. I was vehicle commanding the first one I got. The second one was an RPG, and then the third one was uh from a landmine.

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm. Landmine were you were in the vehicle?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yeah, we were sitting in an overwatch post in on the cemetery that was next to the trash dump up on that high uphill. And we had been there all day. Uh, I went and got out of the vehicle to take a piss and probably pissed on the landmine that we blew up. And I distinctly remember we were doing this overwatch and we had watched literally nothing. No, nothing exciting had happened, but you know, we were of course writing everything down of nothing and calling in nothing. And there was the girls' school across the way, and I remember it they had just got out, and we were like, okay, it's our time to leave. We were leaving, and as we backed out, we maybe backed out two feet, and I was given homewood the finger out the side of the Humvee. And the next thing I remember, I hit the ceiling. Uh, my driver Horadsky was knocked out, and uh my gunner was knocked out, which was uh McCabe. And I don't I don't remember if there's anybody in the backseat or not. I think it was just the three of us in the vehicle at that point. And I thought Horadsky was dead because his eyes were, he was knocked out, but his eyes were completely open, and my knee was dislocated. And as the dust settled, uh, I forced, I force-relocated my knee and kicked open the door because it was wedged shut from the blast, and walked uh out and I made them get out, and I said, just walk on my footprints, then you know anything won't explode, but I'm gonna go first, and walked out and went to the other vehicle. And then the engineers came up and like did an old school like World War II, like took the bayonet and like stabbed in the dirt all over the place, and used a metal detector, and they were like, Yeah, there's nothing else up here. And I was like, I don't know that that's a fucking sweep, but okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. Exactly. All right, cool. Yeah, well, maybe it wasn't you, it was somebody else.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it might have been. I got blown up a fuck ton of times. So, but uh as far as wounded, I only got wounded three times.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, I know you get I think you gave me the thumbs up, yeah. You're like, I'm good. I was like, wow, geez, and then we just kept moving forward. Yep, yeah. That was there was a lot of action during that time, Frank. Half the half of it, I haven't thought about it in years, you know. Right. Did did you end up getting a purple heart? I did on the sixth that day. I thought it's because Brown shot me. Um, because of course we were bounding underneath Mark 19 fire. So I don't know who it was, but um the left side of my arm and my hand, I got shrapnel from it that day. But I yelled, I turned and started yelling at Brown in the vehicle, saying I was cussing him out because I really thought that Brown hit me with the work I see.

SPEAKER_01:

There's so much shit that happened, it probably wasn't Brown, but it it definitely could have been. Do you have any did you end up with any deficits from that, or are you you good as far as that goes?

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

Everything works?

SPEAKER_02:

Everything's perfectly fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's good, man. That's good. Um Damn, I don't really know where to go from here, but uh I mean, what do you remember about coming back?

SPEAKER_02:

Coming back? Um I don't really remember the trip back. I do remember that when I drove home from base that day, I was driving with the lights off, and my wife at the time was scared to say anything to me because she's like, This guy is fucking crazy. I was like the five, no lights on, because of course that's how we rolled at night, you know, and so she said, I watched you turn the lights off, like after we got in the car. You know, I mean, like the lights were automatic, they came on, and she was like, You turned the lights off, and she's like, You were driving perfectly fine, and I didn't want to say anything to you, I didn't want you to snap or anything like that. I was like, Oh, yeah, I would have turned the lights on, man. I'm just used to doing it. So that's like one uh one vivid memory I have right when we got back. And then after that, I remember going to the chow hall and everybody in the chow hall being injured, you know what I mean? Like in wheelchairs or bandaged up, and I was like, wow, this is like crazy. Just uh it just like fifth marines, the whole dynamic of it. It felt like like the Marine Corps, you know what I mean? Yeah, like walking around, and that's pretty much all I remember during that time frame. I was happy to go to Edson Range afterwards. So after that's right, after that deployment, I that was our second deployment. A lot of people got out from our peer group. I stayed in, I reenlisted, like I said, because of Condi. I was like, I gotta stay in. And myself and Fernandez, we checked in at Edson Range and we started working there after our 30-day lead block.

SPEAKER_01:

I was gonna say, I feel like everybody got that free 30 days, right? Everybody to even if you didn't have any leave on the books, you got they gave you 30 days. And so did you report to Edson Range October, November?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't really remember. It was after that. I know I took some time off. I didn't do anything for a while. Yeah. And yeah, probably around November time frame. I think we got back September, right?

SPEAKER_01:

We got back at the end of September, and then almost everybody took almost all of October off.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. So I would say November, December time frame. I checked in at S range, and then I just stayed in for a little bit, you know? Kept working.

SPEAKER_01:

Now did now you stayed infantry, which is the only job there is in the Marine Corps, dog. Uh-huh. Yeah. But a lot of guys didn't stay infantry, a lot of guys moved around and stuff like that. Did you uh did you have any more deployments after that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I went back to uh Barwana and I went to Haditha, Haditha, and actually I got to go back to Ramadi in 2009, and it freaked me out. They were doing the Marine Corps was doing a PT run down Route Michigan. That's how Ramadi was, I know, yeah, right. That's yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt the same way. I was like, there is no way my body can even just it just felt so surreal. I couldn't even understand it that they were doing a PT run down Michigan from like one base to the next base in the streets of Vermont. I was like, you don't know what I seen on this street. It is crazy. Round Saddam's mosque and back. They were actually doing that. I forget which unit it was, but they was like, Oh, you want to go? I was like, Yeah, I'll go to Romani again. And that's what I saw. Crazy, right? In 2010. So yeah, I did multiple deployments back to Iraq. One to Afghanistan, and then a couple more Mews, two Mews.

SPEAKER_00:

No what's what are as a compare and contrast, do you have any of like those other I mean we've we've had this conver Nylon and I that is has have have had the conversation and as time goes on and we have more conversations with these interviews that even inside of the experience of Ramadi 2004, like within the platoons, like my experience is so vastly different than your experience. Um and so it's also I mean it's it's hard to then compare wherever else you were. But do do you have any like knee-jerk thoughts on Ramadi 04 versus later deployments? And did you see, I guess my bigger question is did you see some of the stuff that we were doing mistakenly in the infancy that was then maybe more developed later on, other than the fact that you were running PT uh down Michigan.

SPEAKER_02:

But yes, everything was more developed later on. You know, we had those Frankenstein highbacks and then later on I'm in that huge MRAP maybe. The MRAP, yeah. That thing you can't penetrate that thing, you know what I'm saying? So there was a huge difference, and the Marine Corps pumped a bunch of money into training and equipment, and so I had everything at my disposal, and it was just amazing. And of course, obviously, I bumped up in ranks, so then I was able to call for air, call for fire. We had drones overhead, you know what I mean. So the Marine Corps made a huge transition from what we started at. So the weird thing was I still had the same mindset of being a Lance Corporal in Ramadi, you know what I'm saying? So I trained every platoon that I was in charge of like that, you know what I'm saying? And it was like, oh, we got this crusty sergeant, we got this old staff sergeant that's going the combat. Oh yeah, I worked them like we were going to Ramadi. Um, every platoon that I was with throughout.

SPEAKER_00:

I bet you saved a lot of lives because of that, though.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I did, and they appreciate me for it. So I'm still in contact with them now. And yeah, they feel that I was a good leader. So I I think the ones that I'm in contact with now, and all of them, like everybody that was in any of my platoons, I could reach out to right now and have a great conversation with. Um, it really just makes my heart feel like fulfilled because I was able to carry on that legacy that Conde started for me with them. So yeah, just feels good to me.

SPEAKER_03:

It's awesome. Good.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, you talk about talking about call for fire, just you mentioning that. We I mean, we weren't even allowed to call for fire in the city. You couldn't call Artie. The only Artie there was was counter battery and it would only fire outside the city. We couldn't call for mortars. The only time air was on station was literally one time. The second time air tried to come on station, that helicopter pilot got killed by small arms fire and they left.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Wow, yeah, I don't remember that. Yeah. Later deployments, they have drones that will give you a 10-digit grid of the building and high marks. So it's artillery that's going to hit that grid point. You know what I mean? Later on, like while I was in Afghanistan, you had to have a 10-digit grid. It had to be confirmed by a drone, and then they had to utilize uh high mark high mar ammunition. And so that's like an artillery round that will hit that grid point.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, laser guided, it'll hit right where you put it.

SPEAKER_00:

You mean a magazine just filled with tracer rounds?

SPEAKER_02:

Isn't how you mark the targets later on in uh like later on and after our technology advanced so much, and like I said, like my thrill of combat, I didn't get anything out of like bounding and shooting at an enemy anymore. So I evolved it into how do I utilize high Mars? How do I call for fire? How do I call for cast or air, right? Yeah, learned all that stuff, and then after that, I was like, what else can I do? I mean, this is like the peak of infantry, what it was.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, truly using the the multiple capability concept and being able to to really bring the true weight of the American military on a target is is very different.

SPEAKER_02:

It's amazing. It's amazing what an infantryman has at their disposal. You know what I mean? They can pretty much take over anything if they wanted to, and if they have a great plate on, they could take over anywhere. That's that's what I truly believe.

SPEAKER_01:

It's funny, and and just to contrast that with Ramadi 2004, uh, I've said this again, I've said that we me and Blake have been talking about doing this thing, although we didn't talk about podcasting. We talk about somebody needs to tell this story for 20 years. And there was, at least for me, and probably for you, based on what you're saying, there was a feeling at the time no one's coming for you. You're gonna solve your own problems. That was it. You and you are there was no air coming for you, there was no backup coming for you, there was no secondary marine battalion coming for you. You're lucky if another marine platoon came for you, let alone anybody else. So it was you and whoever you could see. Just the contrast between what you're saying, and you had drones, high Mars, which is an insane capability, uh artillery fire, air, being being able to bring that to bear is is such a a huge difference to the uh knockdown, drag out, head-to-head infantry fight that you had in 2004.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, in 2004, we were the backup, right? Yes. So outside of us, that was it. Yeah, so we brought the fight, and I think we did a very good job of doing it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Did you have any uh you shared uh you shared a couple of your more one-off stories and stuff like that? Do you have uh was a couple more of the ones that you like to pull out as so there I was, you know, type.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah, yeah. Um stories. Um I remember myself and Mackenzie, we were um standing at a corner at night. And all of a sudden we hear like uh dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. She'll be coming around the mountain. Heard that song in the middle of the night. You know how Salad travels at night, and of course, man Mackenzie's like, what the fuck is that? We take off running, right? It was the IED, and the IED, we were actually standing right on the IED. They were calling the cell phone to explode the IED. Oh, it was a Nokia ringtone, and it was a Nokia ringtone. I will never forget that day. We was like, I was like, what the fuck was that? And me and Mackenzie, we just have these conversations. Like, sounds like a cell, and then we take off running in two different directions, right? We call EOD, EOD comes out, they explode it on site. I cannot believe somebody was calling an IED that we were standing on top of. So they had they saw exactly where we were. Yeah, yeah. We knew the time to call it, and it was not connected, it did not blow, and I cannot believe that because I wouldn't be here today. That's a good one. Is one of my like crazy, like there I was stories, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's nuts. Yeah, yeah, you'd be vaporing teeth, man. That's awful.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we were standing right on, you know, like you're just like walking around, and back then we didn't scan anything. We're like, all right, we're gonna be right here. I'm looking down this street, you look down that street, you watch my back. Yeah, right in between us, there was an IED underneath a bunch of robots.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Were did you ever do any door kicks? Were you ever uh like actually targeted door kicks? I mean, other than you know, like when you're getting in the firefights, I mean, you know, we all we all kicked down a couple doors to to chase some some dudes down. But did you were you ever a part of like an element kicking doors?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. Um, just like what Shane said, our platoon was attached out to do missions all the time, right? And it was funny. Um, we get cami paint up at night, right? And we always did these like missions at night, and I was usually outer cordon for the most part, but there was one time that the door had to be blown open, and I was an 0351, a demolitionist, so it was my time to shine. But I was never trained in how much C4 to use or deck cord to use to calculate the ex the right amount of explosive to use to make an entry anywhere, right? So we were we could have had engineers and I was begging. I was like, come on, this is my job, man. This is what I do. So they allowed me to put a charge on a door, but I put the charge on an interior door, and it was like uh C4 charged, and then I learned this later on when I went to like breachers course, but there is a standoff distance that you need to be away from the charge, you know, and they have a blast blanket. Back then we didn't know, you know, P equals plenty. That was like the formula that I utilized. So I put this charge on this locked door, it was like to the second story, and then we just backed down the steps. I thought I died that day. The explosion was so loud and powerful, and I wasn't at a good standoff distance away from it. None of us were, right? So this was like me breaching a door, and then I think Shelton or Silton was like the number one man, and I was like behind them, right? Door blew, none of us could move. Yeah, questions from the blast. We're like this. We're like, uh we're like screaming, like thinking that like we blew up, you know what I mean? Yeah, and then finally, like the tail end guys all rushed past us, and then Rapaz was like, Latham, you ain't doing that shit anymore. Should I did it once, man? I'll always have this story to tell. Yeah, so yeah, we did have a lot of good times like that. Um, kicking indoors and doing a bunch of raids at night and snatching people up here or there, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I was with you. I did most of the outer cordon stuff, so I didn't do a lot of door kicks. It sounded like you know, the 81s did a lot of the in the inner portion because they had a lot more dismounts than we did, at least that's how I felt. And so we ended up doing a ton of the outer cordon stuff, which was just very different. You spent a lot of time at the government center.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, Sergeant Major Booker would always take me with him and Colonel Kennedy into the government center. I was like their security guard for some odd reason. Because of course, we would escort them out there. They'd be like, Latham, come on, let's go. And every time they went into the government center, I got to go in with them and the platoon, they would bust my balls after so much because of course, Sergeant Major and uh Lieutenant Colonel, our battalion commander, they were always like eating good, you know what I mean? Like have like a feast, and it was like, go ahead, eat. And so I would just sit there and eat with them, you know what I mean? I'd come back out and everybody's just standing there on post, you know what I mean? I have a big smile on my face. I'm smoking a cigarette as I walk out with the sergeant feature and the colonel. Man, the platoon hated me for that, but you know, it was it was it was a good hate. They still loved, they loved it at the same time.

SPEAKER_01:

I wonder why they pay I mean, big scary black guy, maybe that's why, but you weren't even the biggest or the scariest. So I mean you're big, and you have a you have an intimidating stare when you want to. Yeah, I guess in my platoon, I was the largest. Were you? I thought, I mean, again, I don't know, but I feel like Williams was definitely bigger than you were. Williams, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, he was a sergeant, he was like in charge.

SPEAKER_01:

So oh, good point. Yeah, so he wouldn't get pulled. That's right.

SPEAKER_02:

He had to do radio and outer court and stuff, make sure people were on post. Me, I was just like, come on, Latham, let's go. I went every single time. So, yes, I was always at the government center. Pretty much any time Sergeant Major Booker was at the government center, I was there with him. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01:

Man, there's a lot of and there was a lot of meetings there, a lot of meetings there, and we were there as well all the damn time on the roof of that place and outside the gates. Yeah, yeah. And you guys, you would take them as well, right? Oh, yeah, all the time to the government center and the agricultural center, and now to the hospitals, constantly taking them all over the place.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, they go out to the police that the police department, too.

SPEAKER_01:

Until they blew it up, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh, yeah, they did blow up the police department.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, brand new police station with all brand new everything, and they blew it up completely.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, I mean, that that that whole deployment. I I from the time that we like rolled in, and and you remember driving from Kuwait and when we got to Ramadi, um, everybody was like on the streets, like staring at us. And everybody, like, I'm looking at all these people's eyes, like staring at me. I was terrified. I was like, oh man, are we gonna get shot at now? Like, my finger was on the trigger, like I was ready. And then after that, man, you know, I just got my rifle dangling as I'm walking down the street smoking a cigarette. Like, I'm not gonna die, man. I'm good. Yeah, you probably came to terms with it. I did, yeah. It was like yes, whatever. I remember Campos. Do you remember Campos enough?

SPEAKER_01:

So I was trying to remember the name of a Marine who didn't want to go outside the gate. Was that him?

SPEAKER_02:

That's the man right there.

SPEAKER_01:

I was literally, we just had this conversation today, and that's funny. I I'm I'm glad you brought that up because I could not remember his name for the life of me.

SPEAKER_02:

Campo was in my platoon, and he didn't want to go out anymore. He was like crying, he was screaming every time, you know what I mean? And I remember I was in the middle of the street, and he was like underneath the vehicle, and I was like yelling at him. I wasn't even paying attention to the gunfight. No, I was like, Look, I'm not getting shot right now. Get out of the vehicle, at least get in. We have to spend manpower watching you. I think they sent him home. They sent him home from that deployment. I think they didn't.

SPEAKER_01:

No, he stayed, and that was so he spent a month not anywhere. He basically stayed in the headquarters pooch and like moved around ammo and cleaned radio, like he did all kinds of weird shit.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And then eventually he stayed with headquarters, like uh, and but he did go outside the wire again, but months later.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. I remember that day. After that day, he was like, like, we all got out of the vehicle, and then he ran underneath the vehicle, and it was weird. Somebody would just, of course, I was a Lance Corporal, and someone always tell me something to do. That day, it was like, get campos, you know what I mean? Yeah, so I was trying to get him out of the vehicle, and I was like, look, I can dance around. I was literally like jumping in the street, like doing jumping jacks. Like, look, I'm not dying. You know, in the middle of a gunfight, and you're doing jumping jacks. Nah, they had it covered, man. I wasn't, I wasn't worried about it. They were good at what they do, you know what I mean? No, absolutely. I'm sitting there doing jumping jacks, I'm dragging him out of the vehicle out from underneath the vehicle so the vehicle could move forward. Like he literally got underneath the vehicle, and then after that, that was the last time I saw him.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they I do know they took him out of your platoon, and yeah, that was that was uh a hell of a thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, if I did see him, I probably didn't say anything too friendly to him. Dorothy, obviously, but um yeah, I do not remember him going out with us again after that specific day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Who did you drive up with when from from Kuwait to Ramadi?

SPEAKER_02:

Drive up with? I think we were all just like loaded in the back of vehicles all over the place. I I that's all I remember. I remember I think it was our platoon, but I d I don't know the specific I was in the back of the vehicle just hanging out, you know, yeah during that long trip.

SPEAKER_01:

Were you in the back of a seven ton or were you in the back of a Humvee? Oh, okay. All right. I mean that's where all the line company guys were too. So that's interesting. Did you pick up your vehicles then in Ramadi?

SPEAKER_02:

I I think so. I think we did get vehicles after we got there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, because there was we had the initial working party in Kuwait where we bolted on a bunch of hodgepodge hillbilly fucking armor onto a bunch of vehicles, and those were the ones we used for the security element and drove up with the convoy. And then we went to Junction City and Gunny Murarki traded like 15 cases of the best MREs he could find to the CBS so we could get a plasma cutter and a welder, and he got everybody who knew how to weld, which included me, and we welded together armor on a bunch of other Humvees, and that was our extra Humvees, and then we made the gun mounts. We physically built all of our gun mounts for all the trucks because there were no gun mounts.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I remember you were out there doing that, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yeah, it was me, Monroe, Savage. Um, I guess I guess, yeah, you were there. I there was like maybe 15 of us total, and it was all day in the fucking hot sun. I think I smoked fucking three packs of cigarettes. Like just I felt like I was back as a mechanic, like I was just welding all day and hating life.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And somebody brought me like six of those shitty non-alcoholic Budweiser near beers, and I that was what I was drinking. I was drinking non-alcoholic beer and smoking cools and welding gun mounts together all day, all fucking day.

SPEAKER_02:

That was a good time, and during that time, I was probably, I don't know, watching a movie while you were doing all that stuff. Yeah, well, that's all right. It was worth it. I'll do that. Send send Nylon out there, man. He's he's he's my mechanic. I remember he's taking care of my car back in the day, too. Yeah, you remember that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, huh? Yeah, I I tried quite a few times to help people out with shit like that when we were back in the barracks.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we were all broke, you know. I can't take my car to a mechanic, I gotta take it to you.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and you had to buy your own gear for deployment, so you certainly couldn't spend money taking it to a mechanic.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, did you so when we did the left seat right seats at the end of the deployment, which was basically September, like they started like September 9th, but they really took the peak at September 11th and 12th, handing off to 2-5. Did you stay back and do that as well? Or were you were you already over in Junction City while the rest of us stayed back?

SPEAKER_02:

Um no.

SPEAKER_01:

I know you I know you said you don't remember much at the end, but I do remember.

SPEAKER_02:

Um there was an officer from the officer whose face got burned off. You remember him?

SPEAKER_01:

I do actually. Yeah, that was uh Captain, I believe. Yeah, Captain Rapicolt from 2.5. He came over. That was July, though. That was July 14th. He was part of the advanced team to come scope everything out. Oh, okay. But yeah, you guys were with them when that happened.

SPEAKER_02:

We took him out and we were yelling at him the entire time. Put your window up, put your window up. And he's like, No, I'm uh I don't know. He said some officer or something. He said he was a captain at the time. He was, yeah. Yeah, no, I'm an officer, you're not gonna tell me what to do. And I swear, uh you shouldn't have wished bad things upon people, but you know what I mean? You give them a warning, everybody has already been there. You're telling you're like, hey, bud, you need to have that window up. He didn't put his window up, and that IED was like in a gas barrel, yep, filled with fuel, and it slapped him on the side of the face. And so we're just in the back of the vehicle high fiving at the time. I do feel bad now, but during that time frame, because it's like, hey, we gave you the warning, that's what that's what you get, Matt. You know what I mean? You're on your soapbox because you're an officer. Um, you shouldn't do that to people who have been in this experience for this long. You know what I mean? We've been doing it for three months. We kind of knew Romani by then.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, by by the time July hit, uh, yeah, we you were uh fucking seasoned combat vet more than anybody else in the last 30 years by that point.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so now I do feel bad, but I remember at that time frame we were la we were cracking up that that happened to that gentleman.

SPEAKER_01:

But yeah, he uh he ended up getting killed in November with Ryan. Well, they got killed in the same explosion. That's horrible.

SPEAKER_02:

That is horrible.

SPEAKER_01:

And then so on that same day later, after you guys evacued him, now you maybe you remember this because it was on uh Oliver North's show. Uh you guys went out to reinforce the library OP because it got hit with a bunch of explosives. They had set a bunch of explosives down in the base of it, and it never did level it, but they they were trying to level it. And then you guys got ambushed at Saddam's Mosque. And that was on that was all the video of you know firing the 50 cal and all that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I I do remember that day, and Colonel Kennedy was out there with us that day, and Sergeant Major Booker. Yep, Colonel Kennedy almost got hit that day um from small arms fire. And Sergeant Major's like, put a javelin in that window. So I got to fire a javelin that day right in the window that Colonel Kennedy was getting. Oh, that's awesome.

unknown:

I remember that day.

SPEAKER_01:

What's funny is when we were in Cat Platoon together, I remember you guys training to fire at windows because and you would you know this better than I do because I've never fired a javelin, but I remember the training where you could lock it on and it had to have 12 points of lock on. But if you had a window with a frame, it gave you enough of 12 points to actually lock on and fire it in the window.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, and that type of fire, it has to be on direct attack because it will break contact. Oh, yeah. I so yes. Um, you will get I think it's 10 points of contact, 10 DDTs. I think I don't know, man. That's this is your your MOS, not mine. I forgot about that. That's a long time ago. But you have to have these 10 differences of temperature, right? Yeah, 10 different temperatures that it the the missile would track on and stay locked on of those differences of temperature. So we would fire like right at the window, and we'd be able to hit it.

SPEAKER_01:

So did it level did it level the building, or what I mean, what was the fallout from that? No, no, it's just a shape charge.

SPEAKER_02:

So once yeah, so big concussion, yeah. Yeah, concussion that goes in through the window and pretty much evaporates everything that's in there.

SPEAKER_01:

So nice. And then you had Ollie North with you as well, filming everything because that ended up on uh on war stories.

SPEAKER_02:

I know, yeah. Oliver North, he rolled with us with this cameraman. I couldn't believe it. And the cameraman, he just we'd get out of the vehicle, cameraman get out of the vehicle, and he'd just roll with us. It was it's cool.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for a dude with no weapon, uh, I don't I don't know how much you ever talked to that camera. Did you ever talk to the cameraman at all?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely, all the time. He was in the vehicle with us, right?

SPEAKER_01:

He was super awesome. Uh, that guy also smoked like a fucking chimney. Um, but he had been in like if you named a combat zone in the world of the last like 10 years prior to that, he had been everywhere. He had been on the Gaza Strip, he had been in Africa, he had been everywhere, literally everywhere.

SPEAKER_02:

With no weapon, no weapon with a camera, just a camera following people. I was like, Man, you got some ball stock, you know what I mean? Yeah, couldn't believe that guy.

SPEAKER_01:

So looking back now, and I don't know if you read that book unremitting that came out recently, that was also kind of a thing. No, not interested. No, not my thing, man.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm good.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm curious why. Why not?

SPEAKER_02:

I am doing this for you because of the relationship that we have. Other than that, I mean Ramadi, I guess I lived that time frame. I'm good. I don't need to keep reflecting on it. But for you, obviously, because of the friendship we have, everything that we've been through together. If anybody else called me, I'd probably like, nah, I'm good now.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I appreciate that. Sincerely, at least between me and Blake, our conversations and I I and a few other people, but I feel like this particular time frame was unique, and this particular time frame has a risk of being lost to history. You did you went to the reunion last year, yeah? I did, yeah. Uh-huh. Do you remember General Kennedy's speech at all? I did a a little bit of it, yeah. I do. So he reflected on that as well, is that basically no one had written this down, and that it was uh it was a pivotal time frame that was unique for multiple reasons. All the things that you've highlighted here lack of training. Uh, our battalion was far, our company was far under TO as far as the number of Marines we had. Our gear was inappropriate, our tactics were non-existent, we invented them, you invented them. Um, and you took those lessons forward and trained junior Marines with them. And so, at least in that way, you definitely passed on the legacy. But I have a feeling, especially with Weapons Company, this vehicular-based combat in an urban center like that had not happened prior. And we invented a lot of the things, and these stories have a risk of being lost to time, which is the biggest reason why we're doing this. Also, to honor all of our friends, right? I mean, I think I think people should know who Joe Latham is, at least in that aspect, right? And and I mean, I think people should know who you are nowadays for what you do nowadays as well, but it's as important as any other story of military history, and for it to be lost and for weapons company to be lost would be a shame. It would be a loss for just for people that are going to be going through things in the future. And we are going, as a country, gonna ask people to go to war in the future, and these stories at the very least can highlight that. What was important.

SPEAKER_02:

I I I I agree with you. All of it is important. However, I'm a very private individual. No, man, I'm the same way. And I don't need to um I don't know. It's it's not that I'm reliving it, it's just like a period in my life, it's a chapter in my life, you know. I've kind of just like outgrown it, you know, and I wasn't getting anything out of combat anymore, you know. There wasn't that climax at the during the end of the deployment. I was like, oh, this is just easy now. I'm a warrior, you know what I mean? Like after you're a warrior and you feel that you're an infantryman, it's like, all right, I've accomplished that. What's next? Like, what's next in life, you know? So I it's funny that my children, now that they're older, ask me about body. And sometimes drunk daddy will hang out in the holidays, and they'll be like, So that tell me a story about blah blah blah blah blah. And I'll be like, what do you want to know? Tell me about that award. So I got an award from the time that I was on Northbridge and I um engaged that enemy, so then they'll start asking me follow-up questions. But I'm like, you can ask me this stuff, whatever, I'm gonna open book, but that isn't the highlight of my life anymore. At that time, it was. Now it's just like in the past, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Yeah, I Blake said this one time, and I'm gonna use him as an example, even though he's not speaking. And uh, but but when you introduce yourself, and I I'm the same way, the first things that come out of my mouth is not combat veteran. It would be 10th, maybe to describe myself, right? It would not be that's not gonna be the first thing that comes out of my mouth. I'm a a father, I'm a you know, a husband, uh, a whatever, my profession, you know, other things. I've done a lot of other things since then. So I agree. I personally have found it to where I have not talked about this for 20 years, and I mostly can't. And it sounds like that's kind of the same with you because I don't know. Do you feel like why why do you feel like you haven't talked about it much in 20 years?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, I just don't feel like I'm gloating. I feel like I'd be gloating, you know, to other people. And like our experience is I I guess the field that I'm in, and I hear about so many veterans talk about like how much of a badass they are, you know. And I'm just like, I don't even want to be categorized with you. So if I actually start telling my real story, people might think I'm lying. I'm actually telling the truth, you know what I mean? And that would piss me off to no end. So I just rather just keep it to myself. You know, I have these memories. The people that are close to me know that they're true, and that's what matters to me, you know. My family, my close friends, Julio, you, Blake, all of you guys, your family to me. I don't need validation from people outside of that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know, yeah, and that's that's really not the goal of us recording this. Um, I hope that you would share these recordings with your family, to be quite honest. I think it'd be nice for them to know a little more about you too. And that, and if you don't, that's fine. That's all your personal choice. But I like to imagine that that somebody's gonna be like, hey, I couldn't talk about it, but here's these recordings, right? Or or something.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think it'll be cool for my grandkids to be able to like right. Like my granddad was really a badass, and he laughed about it as the most gangster thing in the world, right there. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I I do I do think it's important to keep these traditions going. I feel, like I said previously, that I did it with the way that I trained Marines afterwards.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So that that's how my legacy carried on.

SPEAKER_01:

That is a good way to honor it, realistically. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, what award did you get for the that North Bridge engagement?

SPEAKER_02:

What's the lowest award that you can get?

SPEAKER_01:

Meritorious Mast, as far as I know. Where you're talking about a medal.

SPEAKER_02:

Letter of commendation.

SPEAKER_01:

Letter of commendation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I got a letter of commendation.

SPEAKER_01:

But the I'm sorry, certificate of commendation is all called a circom. Certificate of commendation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I got one of those, but it sounds badass. It's like Lance Corporal Latham, engaged the enemy at night, suppressed all this, all these cool military terms. So I have it hanging up on my wall so that when my daughter's boyfriend comes over, he can see it. I'm like, hey, stop right there, read that, and then I'll read it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, let's hang out. That's also another point that I nobody would believe looking at any awards or write-ups that anybody did get. I mean, I it did Condi ever get upgraded from a bronze star, or is he still a bronze star?

SPEAKER_02:

He's still a bronze star, to be sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And and in any other in in any other world, he should be even the next year.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, like in 2005, they changed the way they were doing awards.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. He he should be a navy cross. Like I I he shouldn't get a medal of honor because he doesn't meet the criteria, but he should be as close as possible. And I and it again, I'm not a powerful person, and none of the three of us sitting here are and and I wish that some yeah, well, maybe, and if I ever do, that'll be first on my agenda.

SPEAKER_02:

First thing we do, right? When we run for presidency. Yeah, we talked about that for 20 years now. When are we gonna do it, doc?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, if any of the three of us are gonna be president, it's gonna be Blake because he looks apart and he doesn't have the legal history that you and I do.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's he could just appoint us to like high-level positions.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. That's it. We could be good cabinet positions. All right, Blake. Do your thing, doc. Yeah, but just for what you're talking about, your CIRCOM in any other aspect would have been a bronze star. Like that, there's no reason that shouldn't be a bronze star with a V. Uh, easily, easily, or a navy comm with a V. I mean, if you're gonna really degrade it, but that's that's bullshit. That if you were in the army, you would have gotten a bronze star with a V. Right.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so yeah, you know, just I I've read awards afterwards, and um I'm like, wow, I did more when I was the last corporal than you than you did of this award that I am reading right now. Yeah, it's just it just is what it is. But I don't like I said, the validation, I don't need it externally. I get it from people like you reaching out to me 20 years later. That friendship that's lasted this long is more important to me than any type of award that I can get or that the Marine Corps could give me. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Oh, I definitely get that. And just to kind of continue a little bit what Shane was saying there, but one of the one of the things that I've brought up to Shane several times is and I think I did even now too, that it was such a unique 2001 to 2005 was an incredibly unique time frame for the military in general, the Marine Corps more specifically. And then if you take just 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines during that time period, it is absolutely wild what what we experienced. And that, I mean, you know, if you talk about the fact that we were issued some of the first Molly gear that was out there, but it was an absolute failure and it broke on us and it cut a bunch of people because they didn't put it under load. You know, it we can go on and on about how we helped shape. I mean, the fact that they brought people out from the Marine Corps warfighting lab to interview us to ask us what we were doing so they could create the the pubs back there to get the training going for the next round of people. We we established a lot of this. And not that it needs to like I don't need Blake, you know, Corporal Muser did this or whatever, but it's more that I remember we were talking to uh, do you remember uh Sergeant Garcia uh Flex from 81C? Yeah we were talking to him and uh I forgot that he had that that he had done this, but he had gotten a bunch of like reading material uh that he brought over to Iraq that was on small maneuver warfare, he had a bunch of like guerrilla stuff. And he and I were just going over it, just trying to glean out as much as we could. And I remember having I reflected on this after the conversation, but I remember specifically thinking, you know, this is absolutely wild, because this is well into the kind, this is June, probably mid midway through the kind of the the our deployment, that remembering how the Marines had to deal with uh the Philippines during the uh the Spanish-American War, that the small maneuver warfare that was happening then and the lessons that they learned, they they created this amazing pub of how to do guerrilla warfare, like how how to do counterinsurgency. And we were reading through it and being like, well, this is our like we're literally going through the process of re-re relearning it ourselves and not using the material that was there beforehand, and we're we're bleeding out on the streets literally, because we don't know how to capture this information and bring it forward. And uh I'm glad that you were able to stay in and and do so. Uh I as as time goes on, I I never wanted to write it down because as you said, I never wanted to like like the self, I'm not cool enough to write my story, you know. Like, don't I don't need any of that, but I wanted to find a way to capture it. And uh I I appreciate you taking the time to help capture your your pieces to that. And uh as time goes on and we interview these other guys, and then they'll listen to yours. Hopefully, they'll jog a memory that they'll be able to throw in and tell uh remind themselves that they had a black troll doll that they carried around in there in their pocket that maybe they forgot about because you reminded me.

SPEAKER_02:

That's my guy. Yeah, I love it. Uh and and to your point, I actually after I stayed in, I got to see the transition of tactics change. So you know how like we were flying in vehicles, just rolling as fast as we could, so we didn't hit an IED, IED. They changed the tactic. We started driving slow, so we were able to actually observe and scan our environment. And then the IED hits went down. Of course, vehicles got upgraded, but we were able to identify it more. So tactics changed over time after like what we went through the after action reports, the deepfs, it caused change for the future Marine Corps.

SPEAKER_00:

That's crazy, man. I don't know if you're still tracking what they're doing now, but man, uh what the Marine Corps is doing with 2030, Vision 2030 or whatever it's called. Got some wild stuff going on there.

SPEAKER_02:

I am not tracking the Marine Corps anymore. I I go I go to Camp Pendleton, get my Marine Corps flag after uh it gets faded. I go get a new one, hang outside my house, and that's pretty much it. Some and on Memorial Day, I'll go hike up uh first Sergeant Sale, but I'm not tracking on the Marine Corps and what they're doing. I know the Marines, they got it. They've always had it, they'll continue to have it. They don't need they don't need anything for me. And I don't wanna, I don't know. I guess I don't I I stay disconnected from it, from what's going on.

SPEAKER_00:

100%.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, being forward-facing is the way to go. Cool, man. Well, this has been two hours. Thanks for sharing realistically.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, brother. We've always been family. If you ever need anything from me here in Cali now, when I go to Arizona, I think I posted a picture I was in Arizona. You're like, why didn't you hit me up? Yeah, I didn't know you were here. If I'm next time I'm in Arizona, I'm gonna hit you up. We gotta stay connected with each other. Uh we've been through a lot together, and um, we'll be friends for life, all of us.

SPEAKER_00:

Appreciate it, man. Thank you. If you like what you heard, make sure you subscribe for future episodes on your favorite podcast service.