.jpg)
Constant Combat
This veteran-led podcast highlights the experiences of Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, starting with their harrowing 2004 deployment to Ramadi; a 9 month combat tour which resulted in the highest casualties in a single deployment - a deployment that most Americans have never heard about. Through candid conversations surrounding these events, the series also explores earlier experiences that shaped the Marines, emphasizing their grit, humor, and humanity while aiming to honor their stories authentically.
Constant Combat
Morale, Morality and Mortality - Dave Dobb (Part 1 of 2)
Great conversation with Dave Dobb, 1st Lieutenant in 2004 in charge of Rainmaker platoon.
Dave gives a raw account of how a massive 81 mm mortar platoon split into Rainmaker and Sledgehammer... then they all learned to fight and he learned to lead through the hardest weeks of 2004 in Ramadi. Dave paints the big picture with the choices, costs, and the thin line between plan and chaos.
• Why we divided 81s into Rainmaker and Sledgehammer
• Balancing personalities, skills, and admin control
• Training gaps, ad hoc urban ranges, Pat Rogers course
• Convoy north, first casualties, and mindset shift
• April 6 movement from Government Center to Route Nova
• April 7 ambush on Sunset and rapid counter-fire
• County fair cordons, field hospitals, and caches
• Lioness teams’ role and performance under fire
• Interpreter shortages, vetting failures, and a mosque incident
• Night IED near Snake Pit and vehicle recovery
• Command at the truck, comms constraints, and control
• Writing to families, loss, and responsibility
If you like what you've heard this is a multi part episode make sure you listen to the rest of the story
----------------------------------------------
If you like what you heard, please subscribe on your favorite podcast service or follow our webpage for direct downloads @ https://www.buzzsprout.com/2525088
If you are a member of Weapons Company or someone with a story about Weapons Company 2/4 in 2004, please come tell some stories with us - 20 mins or 20 hours! Help paint the canvas of an archival story for others to know what it was like. Contact us @ RamadiPodcast@gmail.com, or via the podcast website above.
All music used with permission by soundbay: https://www.youtube.com/@soundbay_RFM
All right. Well, let's tell everybody who you are and what platoon you were with and what rank you were in 2004.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'm uh Dave Dobb. I was a first lieutenant back in 2004, and I was the 81's platoon commander, but we have split up uh for that time into two sections, uh sledgehammer and rainmaker. So tactically, I I led the Rainmaker uh platoon during the uh 2004 deployment in Ramani. But uh you know, during that time I was also, it was kind of a unique relationship. I was also, you know, had administrative control over the sledgehammer section. So between Johnny Cook and I, we kind of handled things that way.
SPEAKER_01:That's interesting. I didn't I didn't know that you had still filled like sort of an administrative commanding officer billet uh with the other section as well, although that makes sense because they are technically both your platoons.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so when we did when it came time for fit reps, you know, fitness reports or you know, a war awards writing or documentation of you know any type of personnel action, you know, that was you know, a lot of times I had to you know, we didn't we kind of did everything hand in hand, but especially for those things, you know, writing writing fitness reports or award citations for guys that I wasn't with during that time, you know, had its challenges, but um, but we we you know we were um close enough uh during that time that you know we were able to make that work.
SPEAKER_00:So uh question for you. Um at what like how did you guys decide on how did you split how did you split up Rainmaker and Sledgehammer? Did uh did you know Gunny Cook and you uh do it like softball league style and uh you know just pick pick the best players and then divide up the best? Or uh was there more of a process, or did that come from like higher headquarters? Did they help out with that?
SPEAKER_05:Well I recall it, and I don't have you know real specific memories with how we did that. It was definitely definitely higher command was not involved in that. It was you know, we got the directive that we were gonna split, and I think it was kind of more like a almost like a like a fantasy football draft type of thing, where we're you know, okay, you get him, you get him, but then I, you know, you get him, but then you get this guy. And we we tried to make it, you know, and Blake, you can speak to this too. You know, 81s was a kind of a unique animal, and it always had been for as long as you know I could remember being in 2-4, and this was my second deployment with 2-4. So even going back to the prior Okinawa deployment, and then even even the deployment before that, that it, you know, neither of us was on, but we had heard about it. You know, 81s was just kind of a 81s was a a big animal. I mean, it's the biggest platoon to wise in the battalion, you know, 60s. I don't remember his act. 68. Yeah, it's somewhere right there. Um so you have a lot of different personalities. So we tried to try to divide them up, you know, between, you know, personalities, um, you know, tactical expertise, you know, leadership traits, you know, and all of those things to try to come up with, you know, two units that would be able to function effectively in combat. And and I think you would take myself and Gunny Cook because we were different people too. So we tried to get people that would complement each of us and kind of uh would balance out in the end. And I think looking back at it and thinking about it during that time, because I think we did do some we did do some shuffles, you know, we didn't get it exactly right the first time, but I think you know, due to some casualties and and other things over there, I think we did we did make some trades, but I think all in all, people generally ended up where they started, and I think it was uh a pretty good balance. Um you might have something else to say on that, but I think it I think it worked out fairly well.
SPEAKER_00:No, actually I think uh I I kind of kind of assumed uh what you outlined is kind of how they uh how you guys decided to do that. Um and I would say that we were you know from a intra-platoon standpoint, it was divided up a balanced a balanced way because as you did know, I mean not only was uh Gunny a uh an enlisted guy, but uh you know, personality-wise and and and whatnot, um needing to divide up assets, and I think we functioned pretty well. And actually the the best I can remember, and at least from my uh vantage point, the any of the shuffling was not necessarily due to a poor decisions in the beginning, but more of facing the realities of of the environment that we were then in. And uh, and you know, like just for example, like the the shakeup that we did uh as a company level where we started they've started pulling over some people with more um other tactical abilities, um, MOS-based um to help us out to make sure that we were more fully rounded.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it was along the lines of you know, we we would we lost a driver or two along the way, so we had to shuffle a driver to somewhere else, or someone else needed a we, hey, we need a machine gunner, you know, okay. I got this guy, and then we need, you know, it was it wasn't because oh, this guy can't function with us, or this guy, you know, this platoon is or this this squad is inept, we need to add experience to them. It wasn't anything like that. It was just it was just filling needs based on a constantly changing environment.
SPEAKER_00:Now, the nylon and uh I have joked over the years, even when we were in that uh going back to a point that you made that 81s is definitely a and I'd be and not that this is the point of this conversation, but I would be curious if 81s is 81s across battalions or if 81 if 2481s was uh a unique beast, but um but we definitely functioned even before we went over, we functioned very differently. We and I don't know if it's because of the size or because of how we run our guns, but we did a lot more I don't know if micromanagement's the right word, but we were we were on top of our people uh a lot more than the other ones. Um and that's not taking away from the other platoons, but just we definitely were a little bit more intense um and definitely had stronger people that enjoyed using their outside voice um to get people to do what they wanted them to do.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I I think that's a good way of putting it. I don't I don't know if 81 is like that, you know, across the Marine Corps. I think um but but I think you know I can only speak to how it was in 2-4 as that's the only uh you know unit I had ever been with. Um but I do remember you know checking into the unit. I checked into 2-4 in November about one, and they had come off a deployment, and then I think it was either maybe post-deployment or during the tail end of the deployment, I don't remember exactly, but they had a a pretty good size hazing scandal in which you know a lot of people were removed from spots and relieved of duties and that type of thing. So that stigma kind of kind of hung with 81s, I feel like. So I feel like we were you know under a microscope at times, even even though you know all of the leadership had changed over, everybody knew that 81s, because there were some holdovers, you know, we still had some holdovers in the platoon, and I think that kind of kind of stayed with us. I mean, it stayed with me. I mean, that was always in the back of my mind that hey, this is the platoon that you know had this. And it wasn't all you know, it was just a different Marine Corps then, too. You know, they hadn't done the combat deployment, so I think things were looked at differently. And I don't know that the things that I don't know the details of what happened, but those things that happened may not have been a big deal post this deployment, you know. You know, I don't know. Um, but it was just something that was kind of unique.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there were two there were definitely two Marines that were hurt during hazing incidents, and then uh around that time frame that you checked in, there was also a relatively large group of Marines who were separated from the Marine Corps due to uh popping on urinalysis for drugs. And so, and that was across multiple different platoons, but 81s got hit by that as well by a with a few different people, and so it was just a combination effort.
SPEAKER_05:Yep, and I had checked in, I went to golf company at Weapons Platoon Golf Company, and we had been dealing with the tail end of some of those drug cops, too, who had uh some of them had still been hanging around for whatever reason. A couple at least one of them had gone US who was still on the books.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:So kind of dealing with uh with these that it was it was interesting. Were big issues then were you know too big of issues after you know our deployment just because of the environment that we were in. Um so yeah, I I kind of I came up for golf company, so I I dealt with with some of that there as well. But 81s, I think just being, you know, I think there's kind of a bravado with 81s. I mean, it's the biggest platoon, it's the biggest guns, you know. So I think there's just kind of a sense of pride in the battalion, and you just want to you kind of walk with a little extra um swagger, I think. And I think that is probably true throughout the Marine Corps. I don't know, that was kind of my take on it. Maybe that's because that's where I was at, but you know, that was kind of how I felt that was kind of how I felt about 81s.
SPEAKER_00:Dad was proud of his boys, right? Yes.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say I really like I really like that take. That is not the way I would frame it, but I like that a lot.
SPEAKER_05:Shane's probably rolling his eyes, you know, 81, you know, fucking 81s, but you know, like Blake knows where I'm coming from.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I absolutely well, I I I ended up hanging out with uh for how for whatever reason, I I I did about half and half hanging out with 81s and the and the rest of uh weapons company platoons and stuff like that as they were mixed up throughout the time that I was there. And uh I definitely had several people from the other companies uh be like, so what's up with you guys in a very serious like like like let's sit down and have a conversation. Now remind me, sir, when did you come over to 81? So that would have been after Okinawa.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, after Okinawa, we got back Okinawa 2003, summer of 03, and then that's when a lot of the senior lieutenants had either you know separated or gone on to B billets, and then the guys that you know did their first pump on that deployment, they did the big shuffle, and then I ended up going to 81. So it would have been shortly after the return from Okinawa, so probably like August, uh, you know, July, August, September-ish of 2003.
SPEAKER_01:And is there like a and I know this is a weird question, but is there like a selection process, or do you get to say like, hey, I'd like to go to weapons company, or how does that happen that you guys end up coming to weapons company? Because you were with golf, I believe. Uh JD Stevens was with golf as well. And as far as I know, Dan Crawford was with somebody.
SPEAKER_05:JD JD was with um Echo Company.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And um and Crawford was with um Fox Company, I believe.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um but I was with golf. I had the weapons platoon, so that kind of made you know that of course you get to give your input as to where you would like to go after that first deployment. I mean, the options are kind of weapons company or company XO or three alpha or three Bravo, but ultimately, you know, it's not it's not your decision. Yeah. And I had gone shortly after getting to golf company, they had sent me to the MLOC down at Fort Benning, which is the um infantry mortar leaders course. So I had I which is kind of a unique school for us to go to, so I had that um under under my belt. And I, you know, having had the weapons platoon for a 12-month deployment, it was just um, you know, I had said I'd like to go to 81s, they saw that as a good fit. So 81 81s it was.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Nyland knows my feelings on uh the supremacy of uh mortars on the battlefield. So I think uh obviously I I you're a smart man, Dave.
SPEAKER_05:Well, stupid. Well, I mean, in hindsight, I mean it I mean we didn't get to deploy them a whole lot, so but anyways, it was still it was a good spot to be at the time, and it was a good place to be. I mean, I think weapons company is always a good place to be. We had a couple lieutenants, or at least one lieutenant that checked into the battalion with me that went right to weapons company as I believe the heavy guns platoon commander. Um, so we we were all kind of in envy of him for a little while. So I was happy to finally make it to Weapons Company.
SPEAKER_01:Was that uh oh McFadden, yes. Yeah, he was with uh Cat Platoon. He it was a mixed platoon between heavy guns and he was my platoon commander in Okinawa.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, and I think over in Oakie, you guys also hung out with uh uh Lieutenant Appert, too, if I remember correctly.
SPEAKER_05:Yep, so he preceded me with 81s, so I got to know John John pretty well. He was obviously senior to me in the battalion by probably you know 12 to 18 months is kind of usually how they gap us. And then yeah, he was in that that prior wave, and then I had come with a with a bunch of guys, uh Stevens Crawford, McMaddon, Caliphaetus.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, nice Arnett.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know if Arnett rings a bell, he was in that group too, and then just shortly after me was shortly after that group was you know, Schickle and Rob Scott.
SPEAKER_02:Oh wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:They both went to golf.
SPEAKER_00:They we were all in golf company together when back when Lieutenant Gaskell was still the XO and so coming into the fall of 03, um, I know I've heard well, General Kennedy now, but uh talk about the process of knowing that we were, you know, more generally on deck, knowing that we were on deck that we were gonna get pushed pretty quickly after uh uh Okinawa. But then it was, I think if I remember his story correctly, it was at the Marine Corps ball, so November, finding out that a little bit more specifically where we were gonna go. Was there deeper conversations about well, what does this exactly look like? Here's the here's the training evolution, um, getting brought into at the battalion level, or were you just holding on tight and giving us good training at the platoon level? What was the planning process?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember, yeah, I don't remember a lot of specifics with respect to you know, we're doing this because this is where we're going. It was more of a generalized, you know, desert type, you know, town environment training that we were gonna do. And and you can be assured that anything that I was getting behind the scenes, you guys were also getting it. Um, it wasn't, you know, there wasn't this grand plan behind the the scenes that was being drawn up that wasn't being shared with you guys, you know, and and and I realize that sometimes there may have been a lull in communications, and it it wasn't because we were withholding it, it was just because we didn't have it. Um I I know behind the scenes, dude, they were working behind the scenes to come up with the most, you know, realistic training they could. And I I do remember doing well, we went, I don't remember exactly where it was, but they kind of did a mock-up of an Iraqi March town. I mean, the best yeah, we did we did March, and then I feel like we did we did somewhere else that I think was on Camp Metalton too, that we just they did a it was a pretty um you know ad hoc.
SPEAKER_01:Um that was just out in the backyard out behind San Mateo. Uh something that that was put on between a couple of battalion assets, but largely uh Gunny Maroki was involved in getting that organized.
SPEAKER_05:Yep, that sounds right. So just the best things that we could come up with with the equipment and time that we had, which you know, we're short on both of those. So I think just giving some, you know, doing the best we could with with what we had and and really not knowing, having no way of knowing what we were going into at the time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, my memory of that time period was I would um there was a bunch of school slots that had gotten opened up, uh, allowing us to grab slots. And I I ended up not training very much with 81s because um y'all kept sending me to the the like multi- I think I went to like five different five different division schools back to back, um all the way up until basically uh only a few weeks before we actually deployed, you just pushing knowledge to that way we had some people that had at least some frame of reference when we got over there so we could adapt and overcome.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah, so people like you, and and there were there were others, but you know, we would push you, you know, the the people who we thought would be best at you know coming back and relaying what they learned to everybody else, you know, that's who we would send. I actually went to one, I don't know if you you guys were there was a couple people from the unit. It was led by Pat Rogers. It was more of a tactical shooting course where we would just go out and I think for I don't know if it was just a week or 10 days, but we would just shoot, we would do shooting rails all day, all day long. And I ended up going to that one because nobody else wanted to go. So I was like, fuck it, I'll go. You know, so I was gone for a week just showing up and shooting, you know. That when I got and it was actually it's too bad that we couldn't have put you know the the whole unit through that because really that's that's what we needed.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say that's what you ended up doing.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I I became pretty damn proficient, you know, with the bank changes and everything. So um it's just a repetition thing. So I yeah, I do remember, you know, due to the upcoming deployment, we got a lot of school slots, and then we just had to between Gunny Cook and I, we would just have to fill it with who we thought, you know, and then you had you had other things mixed in, and it wasn't just most capable Marines, it was well who's who's on leave or who has this going on and all that type of stuff to to try to get the but the you know the people through that would most benefit the whole of the unit.
SPEAKER_01:Now, fast forwarding to the actual Ramadi deployment itself, did you end up driving up with from Kuwait, or were you part of the element that flew up uh and landed in Alasan?
SPEAKER_05:No, so I actually I drove up and I I don't even know if I came with most of my platoon because I I stayed back. I was one of the last ones to leave because if you recall, we had a Marine in Echo Company commit suicide.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_05:So uh Mils Ark, uh Matthew Milsark committed suicide. So the the battalion needed an officer to conduct the command investigation into that or the the inquiry into that, and that was me. So I had to stay back and interview Marines and and formulate that whole that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I I didn't realize that was part of your duties, and that's that's something I would not even have considered. Uh, what does that entail doing in the investigation? Just asking everybody sort of the his surrounding events, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Really just interviewing everybody who had interaction with him, who who knew him, um, and then just coming up with a document, you know, showing all the the findings of facts that you found during the investigation. And it's just it's a pretty formal process. It's the battalion XL Major Riley was was overall the command representative on that, but it's a typically, you know, the responsibility of a junior officer to to conduct that. And that and that is something like a lot of things in the Marine Corps that you don't get a lot of training on.
SPEAKER_01:No, that was gonna be my next question is what guidance did you get? Because that's that's a pretty serious investigation to just be thrown into.
SPEAKER_05:Very much so. And and it wasn't, you know, it was more it's more of a fact-finding mission, not necessarily a um, you know, this is why it happened type of investigation. But yeah, very little. And I think I I think he acquired a go by for me from a case that was you know not applicable at all, but it it showed me the you know the margins I needed to use and the spacing I needed to have on the document and that type of thing. But I mean that was but I took that you know it's a serious responsibility, you know, and I spent hours and hours, you know, interviewing people, you know, writing and drafting, drafting the document, and you know, ultimately it you know it goes up for approval, and it was a very time-consuming uh process to be doing, you know, just prior to it.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say, especially when you're right about to cross the uh uh line of departure and head into a combat zone. It's like, hey, here, take this very serious but very administrative task.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Um, so yeah, so I came up after that was complete, you know. I kind of got on, I think it was about the last the last convoy up, you know, and the back of seven tons that came in. I think most of the guys were already up there. It was on the tail end coming up.
SPEAKER_01:So you and you didn't ride with anybody from your platoon then? So you were just chilling in the back of a seven ton with other people.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I don't I don't know that for sure. I mean, it was definitely all two four marines. I don't know if it was all of you know Rainmaker or not. Yeah, um, but it was definitely definitely the the tail end. I mean, I do remember riding up there, but I don't remember who I was with. I mean, I remember obviously coming into the city like most people do and and seeing the faces of the locals the the unwelcoming faces of the locals, and yeah, and I I remember that pretty vividly, but not so much who I was with. I just know that we were we brought up the tail.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think everybody has a st well, maybe not everybody, but most people have a story of coming into the market square and just everybody stopping and staring and mostly giving you the stink eye, like they did not want us there at all. There was there was zero amount of people who were saying hello.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I think the guidance given to us was to wave and smile, and I think and I think for the most part we tried to do that, but then at a certain point it was like, okay, we look stupid now. Like this is this is stop like this is not being received well. Like, let's let's that was the plan, that was the plan, but then you you adapt to the circumstances, right?
SPEAKER_00:So so we adapted, and I think the smiles kind of went away and the waving stopped, and we were just kind of that was still when our tactical uh and strategic mind strategic mindset was hearts and minds, right? And uh that uh that's that did shift. Uh not that we weren't trying to get hearts and minds, uh, just in perhaps different ways.
SPEAKER_01:So then you got there and you broke out into separate platoon. Who was in your truck with you, Dave?
SPEAKER_05:Well, um Regelsberger was the driver.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:And then we had Savage on the on the gun, and then we had Doc Contreras was in the back. And I think you know, those were kind of the mainstays. But I think, you know, beyond that, I think, you know, I think it changed, I think it changed a little bit depending on the mission or or whatever. I don't remember who was always with us, but I I do know that you know those those three are the most that I had. Those three were always there, and I think uh everyone else maybe you know fluctuated a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:And then everything got pretty serious pretty fast, right? We rolled up from Kuwait March 6th, and the first serious casualty was a week later with McPherson, and then a week after that was uh the bike IED that that caught Warth in the eye, which was your platoon as well.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, we got into it pretty quick, and although you know McPherson was golf company, he was one of my Marines during that first deployment.
SPEAKER_01:That was gonna be my question, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and he was one that I was you know probably, you know, I was closest with him as I was with anybody in golf company. So I think well I know that that one hit me pretty hard, and it kind of opened my eyes like holy shit, this is it got real quick, you know. Um I knew they didn't like us, but it it escalated quickly. Um, so that one, you know, McPherson hit pretty hard, and then just hearing the details of his wounds, you know, that that one hurt, and then then obviously we go to worth, which is he's one of your own, you know, I'll be a you know sledgehammer, but like I said, he was he was one of ours, so that that hit hard too. But as you guys know, I mean very little time to dwell on it, you know, you gotta you know learn from it and and move on. But yeah, it it escalated quick, and then and then right around that time of worth was when Lieutenant Kaler, the XO, the the then the XO of Echo Company was seriously wounded, and he was he was one of my best friends of the battalion. He was later the best man in my wedding. I was in his wedding, and he was, you know, at the time he was evacuated, we didn't know if he was gonna make it or not. And obviously he ended up making it, but that was right around that same time in March. So we had you know multiple multiple casualties then that both hit pretty close to home for me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Um it I don't think people realize how fast it ramped up in intensity, and that's kind of why I brought that up is that you know, most people came up on March 6th. There's a few people showed up later March 7th, 8th. March 13th was McPherson's jaw blown off, and then the 20th was worth being blinded, losing an eye. And then Fox Company had a Marine killed uh from an RPG attack, and it may not may not have been Rainmaker, but it was Sledgehammer, I believe, went out to that as the response.
SPEAKER_05:Yep, I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, and then uh March 25th was when Echo Company was able to ambush those guys with all the mortar gear, and then right after that, on the 26th, was when the mosques started calling for killing of Americans, and everything escalated from there. Obviously, the Blackwater contractors killed in Fallujah, and then everything started getting getting wild shortly thereafter. Uh to my remember, and this is just me remembering, moving forward to the the actual battle of Ramadi. Map one was out and in the south of Ramadi and did that coordinate knock and caught uh Adnan Farhan, and then Golf Company was ambushed off of Easy Street, and Map 3 went out first, but you guys went out second. Is that correct, Dave? You went out and backed up Map 3 and Golf Company in the south of the city?
SPEAKER_05:Now, what date are you talking?
SPEAKER_01:This is April 6th, the first day of officially of the Battle of Ramadi.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so the 6th, we were out and we kind of I think our first link up was out at the government center. Okay. I think it started right in the vicinity there. Echo was the golf was pretty heavily engaged by the government center, and we were called there to reinforce golf company, and we had he backed a couple casualties back to the combat outpost, and then we met up with Colonel Kennedy and Major Harold down there as well, and then we headed up to um Echo Company, who was that's when Echo Company was surrounded up north of Route Nova.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, around Route Nova. That was when you guys I remember you showing up and joining up with us around Route Nova.
SPEAKER_05:Yep, yep. So I think that was we ended up we ended up in the city, and then we ended up pushing up north to the river to assist them.
SPEAKER_01:Now I'm curious I'm curious when you're around the government center and they were ambushed, did you guys meet heavy resistance? This is where um while I really appreciate that book, Unremitting. Uh I really think it's a great depiction of everything that happened with Golf and Echo Company. I I feel like I I saw you quoted in there a couple of times, and then it just sort of falls short of any sort of description of what happened.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so when we rolled off on the sixth, it wasn't they were not heavily engaged at that time. Now they had been, but when when we showed up, you know, it has had largely dispersed, and there was you know periodic pot shots and that type of thing, but there wasn't heavy engagement at that time.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and then we did assist in evacuing some casualties, and then we had gone to and from the city out to combat outpost a couple times, and each time, you know, going back and forth, we had encountered some resistance. So I remember you know, Savage was you know on top of the gun at that time, and we were having to fight our way back and forth a little bit, but I wouldn't call it heavily engaged.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, nothing that stopped your progress anyway.
SPEAKER_05:No, nope, it was like we were just we're moving, hey, look, you know, one behind the hill, and then we would suppress it and and kind of move on as we were trying to get the casualties back, and then we linked up with uh the CO and OPSO there in the city, and then we uh linked up and went north.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that was I remember that specifically uh on the sixth that you guys showed up when the where the snipers and some of the QRF from Echo Company were pinned down on the north end of Nova, and we ended up uh stealing your vehicle, your vehicle specifically, uh and Regelsberger as the driver to evac those guys off to Junction City.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and actually, as I'm thinking this out, and I should have known this, when we linked up and we had a north, it wasn't it wasn't Colonel Kennedy, it was Colonel uh Captain Weiler at the time.
SPEAKER_01:It was. It was Captain Wyler. Yeah. Captain Wyler was the one in the north.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I misspoke. I misspoke on that. But yeah, it was directed by Kennedy and Harrow, but it was it was Weiler that we linked up with and headed north.
SPEAKER_01:And so once you guys came through the Sophia District, I I remember very distinctly when you guys pulled up because I was I I don't know. I was surprised that you arrived. I expected you to get hemmed up long before you ever got to us. You didn't meet any resistance coming up through the Sophia district at all?
SPEAKER_05:No, no, not that I recall. And even when we got up there on Route Nova and we were pushing to the east, and then we had kind of and then we had word that um you know people were missing and that type of thing. So that's when we dismounted and kind of pushed off. I mean, there was some resistance and we provided some suppressive fire, but yeah, there was major.
SPEAKER_01:There was sort of that last push by the insurgents at that point where there was no three or four guys that had come through the field. But it was you're right, it was not not heavy resistance in any way by the time we got to those guys that were missing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I know we kind of came in guns ablazing, and I think a lot of people were happy to see us.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a good way to do it.
SPEAKER_05:Which was usually the case when we when we showed up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And then uh we ended up linking up with there was a two Bradleys that came rolling down uh from the east side of Nova, and that was when all the evacs started happening. And I don't know who else evacked people, but I know we stole your high back, and my truck and your high back went and evaced uh two of the snipers and someone else, the third person, but I don't know who he was with.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I think that that's when um Colonel Connor, you know, from the from the army unit from the army, he he was out there, and and the fact that you I mean this is a whole different topic, but the fact that you know you referenced the high back. I mean, the fact that we were rolling around in highbacks is just insanity, you know.
SPEAKER_01:As we found out and we knew at the time, but you know, that's what just one of those things that you just didn't know, you know, you go with what you have and yeah, and the it uh lightly speaks to you in that you chose to be in a high back uh uh out of all the vehicles you could have chosen to jump into. Uh I don't know that I would choose to be in a high back. I definitely would have been in a high back, but I don't know that I would choose it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I don't know that I chose it either. Um, but it was uh you know, we had we had the plywood over top, you know, right over our heads, you know, up in the cabin. Um I don't know if that was supposed to provide some level of protection or or not, but then we had the you know the L-shaped doors that were on, and then we had some some iron on the back that you know, a lot of that was acquired in Kuwait. You know, and Savage kind of led that effort of basically dumpster diving what the army had left behind, yep, and find and finding what we could use and affixing it to our vehicles, which it was genius at the time, but we didn't know how much we needed it, but it was it wasn't a lot, but it it was something, you know. So um, and then over time we found that you know the the vehicles were not equipped to handle all of the added weight that we had been.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, they all looked like they were bow legged going down the road as the suspension collapsed.
SPEAKER_05:Right, and then at some point we got actual doors to go on them, you know, with the thick glass windows, I think that were actually made to go uh you know provide some level of protection too. But but again, I mean that really um you know took its toll on the vehicles over time.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Yeah, the original thinking with the plywood tops over the top of the canvas in the highbacks was that if you had to fire to the rear, there was no possible way for the gunner to jump because the way the pintle mounts were, there was no possible way for the gunner to jump up on that roof without falling through. And so we screwed plywood onto the top as it was we we didn't have anything else. Uh we had we had a whole stack of 20 sheets of uh construction grade plywood and a saw, and we were like, well, this is what we have, and so we put it on.
SPEAKER_05:Like I said, I mean you you go with what you have, um that's what we did.
SPEAKER_01:And then moving forward from there, uh, this is my memory, again, you tell me, but uh April 7th, as far as I recall, map three was the first out the gate, and our exo, uh Lieutenant Wells, went out with map three, and there was some fighting down in the south of the of the city near the soccer fields, and you guys were second out the gate, but not long after. I mean, it was minutes after 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and then you were out the gate.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, we were pretty quick, and I don't I don't recall specifically them going out first, but I do remember that we went out pretty early. Golf company was heavily engaged down south, so we were called to reinforce them, and we we head out, uh headed east, and then we took that right going down. I believe it is sunset. And I'm in the lead vehicle, and then we banged that kind of a soft left that you turn, and and we got about two or three vehicles had made that turn, and then just gunfire erupted, and we had been ambushed by uh medium machine guns right off our left flank. There was a a house, a compound with a gate around it that they had had a medium machine gun set up behind, and they just opened up on us, and it was you know, initially just you know, you're that close, it's almost you know, the the noise is just you know paralyzing, and um, all of a sudden, you know, we were you know almost instantaneous in our response and Savage, especially because I distinctly remember his gun about two feet behind my ears just started going off, and and everybody else in in turn just you know immediately responded and it you know it felt like a lifetime, but it was probably 10 or 15 seconds, and the dust had kind of kind of settled, and so and a lot of the guys had you know, we had you know dismounted and you know we're they were pushing north, and I was down on the road, I stayed down on the road, I was on the radio trying to communicate back what had happened. I didn't really know what had happened at the time, except that we were ambushed, but obviously our mission there was to help golf, was to back up golf companies. So we were although we had a situation, immediate situation we had to deal with, you know, our priority, you know, was still to get the golf company. So as soon as our situation there was rectified, we shifted our focus back to getting to golf company. So that was kind of our first, you know, we had had some sporadic contact up until then, but that was kind of the first first big sustained ambush, first big sustained contact that kind of really created that fog of war that you know you read about, you talk about, but you can never really simulate until it happens. It's kind of like the Mike Tyson quote that everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face, you know. So that that was that was kind of that was that for Rainmaker specifically.
SPEAKER_01:So that's a perfect transition and segue to something I really wanted to ask you specifically. Uh so you ended up being basically attached to the truck because that's where your radio was. Did you find it hard to do sort of a command and control because you had very limited assets? Like we didn't have we didn't have drones, most of us did not have GPS devices. Uh I think we got a Blue Force tracker very late in the deployment, and we only had one. Um there was just so so few things, and we had those you know, printed paper maps, but otherwise trying to figure out where other units were and what was going on was difficult, at least for me. I'm curious what your perspective was.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, it definitely was challenging. I mean, because I was I was near that vehicle all the time. I mean, I you know, really for the radio purposes, and you know, I think tactically, I mean, I I think our it probably made sense for me to be by that vehicle, but I didn't really have a choice because you know communication is so key. You know, because when you you know, what do they always say? You know, lack of comms is a that's a leadership issue, you know. So you have to you have to be you have to maintain comms at all costs. So if I'm a couple hundred meters away from the radio and you know, I needed to communicate or some or someone needed to communicate with me, you know, that was that was uh that was on me. So um yeah, I mean it definitely put a level of res restraint, but I think most of the time I think that's where I would have been anyway, because that's kind of how our platoon we were within an earshot of the vehicle most of the time. I mean, whether we were doing the satellite patrolling through the city or you know, dismounted, you know, clearing a house. I mean, we were typically fairly close to a vehicle anyway.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, we were a little different than the line companies in that we weren't just out there with one vehicle and in you know, 35 marines or something like that. We were you know, the vehicle was kind of our pub of operations, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And so then going forward from there, it's uh you know, we had the Operation County Fair on April 8th. It's sort of a small-scale cordon. I don't remember specifically what uh Rainmaker's portion was of that, but I know that there wasn't really much sustained contact as far as that goes. There were some weapons recovered, there was quite a few field hospitals found. But then April 10th was the first bug hunt, was what they named it, and that was up north in the Sophia district. What was uh what was your understanding of what was going on on that day?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so what I recall on that is we had a pretty specific cordon area that we were supposed to hold, and we did meet some resistance going out there. I don't think it was initial, but I think it was after the sun came up. I remember moving down the road, and I remember distinctly that you know there was a guy popping out with an RPG and he missed, and then we saw him though, and and Garcia, sergeant uh Philips Garcia, who was my platoon sergeant at the time, had seen him, and he said something to me like essentially, hey, I got him next time he comes out. And it wasn't long after that that he did pop out. Garcia shot him, he shot it, and he and he had him, and then as we kept on moving up, we followed the trail of blood into the house, and he was in a some type of closet in a bedroom, and we you know he was still alive at the time, and I just remember, and I think that this is is written pretty well about in the in the book on remitting it that I was standing over him, and then he grabbed my weapon, and I something that sticks with me to this day that I'll never forget is the amount of the will to fight that he still had, even though he was you know ended up being so close to death. Um, you know, he grabbed the the muzzle of my weapon and I you know went to jerk it away and his whole body came up and I ended up having to use my to basically foot stomp him to let go of my weapon. And if you know, uh I was a pretty good sized guy, you know, and it took everything I had, you know, to get him off of the muzzle, and then we ended up moving him back to one of the Humvees, you know, for transport uh to an aid station, but I think he expired prior to that. So that's something that sticks in my mind that day. And then as we continued to push up north towards the river, we had located a field hospital that you referenced, and then there was uh sporadic contact still towards the river and north, and I I just specifically remember you know Hodges being up there, and then we had Lion S units with us that day. We were one of the they were one of the first Lion S units to actually go out in Iraq, and they were I believe they were they were uh soldiers, I I believe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that was the only ones I saw were all army. And I I am curious, did you did you have any say on picking who went or anything like that? I never knew how the Lion S teams got picked and then who they rode with, because they almost never rode with my platoon. Uh, and they rode, it seemed like they rode with you guys in map three a couple of times.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, I don't think we had a yeah, I don't recall having a say. And I mean it was they may have said, Hey, are you open to this? And of course we were open to it. I mean, especially, I mean, yeah, Hodges, so you think he's gonna turn down some women coming out with him, you know? I think most I think most of the guys would have welcomed that um at that time. And they were and I think they had met them prior to going out and they were pretty gung-ho and motivated, you know. And and when we got out there, I mean it was they backed it up. I mean, it was they were definitely an asset. I mean, they were an asset for the intended purpose of you know being able to search females and and all that type of stuff, but but when it came time that they had to pick up a weapon and use it, I mean they were competent to do that as well. So I think I think all in all it was uh it was a success.
SPEAKER_00:There was uh there's a staff sergeant, I feel like maybe Aaron maybe was her name, I can't remember, but um I remember that she was solid and a cup, you know, when things went down, there was no concern that she was going to be a warrior also.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think we would feel the same way.
SPEAKER_01:I imagine there was a lot of pressure, and they probably only took people who specifically wanted to go outside the wire. And so there's a little bit of a self-selection process, or at least there had to have been. And they all, yeah, they all seem very ready to participate.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I would I would imagine they had a screening process, and you know, I don't know what was said to them behind closed doors, but it was you know something to the effect of you know, if you fuck this up, it's never gonna happen again, type of thing. This is the one chance.
SPEAKER_00:You have the entire uh female population riding on your shoulders. Uh no problem. So so actually the lioness that made me uh popped in my head is uh kind of one uh another support element that we had some crazy ups and downs with, and I felt just because of my relationship of how I was dealing with them, but uh the interpreters. Did you what were what were your relationships with the interpreters? Um and I guess what I'm specifically thinking of is is that the first set that we got, I think half of them were bad dudes, and we ended up they ended up all getting taken out in one way or another. And then we had another round that were Moroccans who didn't they spoke Moroccan and so they were as worthless as somebody that didn't even speak Arabic. And then we ended up with uh a good handful of, you know, you had Rocco and Qasm or Wilbur and then Danny, I think the other guy's interpreter's name was, but uh I know some platoons ran more heavy with uh interpreters than others. Um did you I I don't know what Rainbab Rainmaker did.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, we didn't really have an assigned one. I think we would grab one when one is was available and we needed one. I mean, I remember Rocco well because he was kind of the company, the main company one, and I remember Wilbur. But I didn't, you know, I read these books and listen to these things about these guys that oh, they brought their interpreter to the United States and all this stuff, which is all great, but I just didn't have any type of relationship with any of them like that. We just didn't we didn't have the same one consistently. I mean, we just you know, as you recall, I mean, we didn't have enough of them, so you would kind of if one was available, you would grab them, but if not, you would just go with what you had. So I never really developed a close relationship with anybody, with any of them.
SPEAKER_00:Did you end up having anybody in the platoon that um went to that Arabic school slash and or picked up Arabic over there that helped you uh navigate some of the language barriers? Or do you not feel like a lot of your missions required you to have that level of interaction that required you to talk?
SPEAKER_05:I think going over there that was kind of the thought that it would be really beneficial, and I think it I think it is to some extent, but I think the vast majority of our missions for you know what our missions turned out to be, it really wasn't needed. And you look at some of these the lining companies kind of had a specific AO that they were dealing with, right? So they were dealing with a lot of the same people day in and day out, and I think that might have been you know more beneficial to them to have someone to really communicate with. But whenever we went out, I mean we were in the whole city, so our radio was the entire city, so we were in a different place every day, we weren't seeing the same people. So I mean, we I don't think we were some of those relationships that some of the companies may have had, and and we were not on foot either most of the time, right? So we're you know, we're driving by, and I think our engagement with people was probably less than the line companies.
SPEAKER_00:That makes a lot of sense. That makes sense. Oh no, it it does. I I I my perspective is just slightly different just because I was did get sent to the Arabic school when then I kind of got pushed into being a little bit more of a forward-facing uh and so my relationship, and so now that you've described it that way, I'm realizing now that especially as a weapons company, all those interactions that I was having where I was trying to communicate was because I was sent out on a hit or was a part of a door element uh during bug hunts and stuff like that, where I was being asked to be an extra liaison. So that makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_05:And it's not yeah, and it's not to say that it wasn't beneficial when we had them or there wasn't a use for them with us, because there definitely was. I mean, we had times that we were we were doing coordinates, we were doing searches, we were going into multiple houses. So it was when we had it, it it was beneficial, but I felt like it wasn't necessarily, you know, mission essential all of the time. And like it wasn't gonna, we weren't gonna wait or you know, postpone a mission to get an interpreter, you know, because we had enough people that I think could communicate what we needed to get across without having to that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:That makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Speaking of interpreters, now uh a memory popped in my head that one of the two of you, and I I I believe it was Rainmaker, uh, was on the inner coordinate element, and we had those, we had a new interpreter. I I don't remember his name. I do remember he was from Detroit. He was not from No and for whatever reason, uh someone made the command decision to allow the interpreter to carry a gun. And he shot himself in the foot and shot an Iraqi police person uh while we were on the cordon. Do you happen to remember that, Dave?
SPEAKER_05:I do remember that, and that was right outside of a large mosque over by the soccer stadium. Is that right about?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.
SPEAKER_05:I should know the name because I remember the there was lights, yeah, there was lights flashing, and you know, I I remember it, but I don't remember all of the specific details, but I do I do remember that. That was not my decision to give him the gun. I will say that.
SPEAKER_00:So so I actually I I I do have a few more de a few more details because Sledgehammer was there also. I I think it was a it was a it was a bigger it was a bigger move that we were doing because because we were actually making it was one of the first times uh that we were going to try to make an official entry into a mosque. Into a big mosque. Into a big mosque. And so we pulled out quite a few elements and we had taken every last interpreter that we could muster because we wanted them to go in as an element, more or less. And what had happened was a couple of them, I think it was Rocco and I can't remember who all was a part of the first, like I think there was like six of them, and they were going in, and there was another interpreter that had we had given them a video camera because we wanted them to videotape inside the mosque. And he was so excited about using a video camera because he'd never used one before and all this other stuff, and he was really jazzed about it. And he was chatting with whoever was giving him the video camera, and then realized that everybody had already gone inside. And so he went and ran inside to like catch up with everybody and surprised the the interpreter that was carrying the weapon, and he had his finger on the trigger and just and he leaned back and the and the rise of the shots like shot him in the foot, shot, shot, and then the uh Iraqi policeman ran out of the ran ran out of the mosque like with two like fractured shins and ran like we had to catch him real quick because we didn't understand what was going on. Yep. And uh that that interpreter that got shot in the foot ended up sticking around for a little while until his foot got really infected and then had to get Medivacked out.
SPEAKER_01:But he he he was getting enough money to where he refused to be evacued. He I specifically said he was worried about the paycheck being cut and he got such a nasty infection he had to leave because he was gonna die. That I remember because we had to take him to the medical. We we took him to medical.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that all that all jibes. And when the shots went off, I remember the video camera was going all willy-nilly, and lights were flashing all over the place, and everyone's like, what are you doing? Flash on the lights, and it was the video camera. Uh before the days of the smartphones and all that, not by much, but no, you know, we didn't have that, we didn't have that stuff.
SPEAKER_00:No, there was a handful of us that had uh I had a small camera, and I know a handful of other people did too. And so we were able to record some stuff. Not like it was not not like some of the towards the end of the war with people just having straight up GoPros.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So what else do you do uh what else kind of on that, you know, we're talking about kind of hitting the mosque. Do you have any other uh any missions stick out to you of uh like coordinated, hey, here's your grid coordinates, go hit it. Um whether they were there's always that that mix of like, hey, this was tactically sound, this was an awesome mission. We did we we got we got what we wanted, we did it really good, and then the absolute boondoggles that can happen. Uh any stick outs in your mind?
SPEAKER_05:You know, not mission-wise, really. I mean, another event that kind of sticks out, and I I don't recall the date, but it was a night. We were on a night patrol, and I'll it would have been you know, vicinity behind the snake pit, which is which is where Fox Company was. Yep, and we were moving and we uh we hit a pretty good size IED, and that was one of the first IEDs that we hit. I mean, we had you know we had had the machine gun fire and stuff, but we had I think that was really the first IED at nighttime, and that you know, nighttime always adds in a different element.
SPEAKER_00:Is that the one that Holmes got hurt on?
SPEAKER_05:That's when home and that's when Hurley was pretty mangled as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and I think probably some others, and I you know, that's one that kind of sticks out to me too as just being you know chaos because you just you know it's dark, nobody can see, you don't know where it came from, and then you know, you have the obvious issue of well, is that the only one? Is there gonna be direct fire, you know, coming next as we're trying to figure out where everybody is, you know, how badly hurt everybody is, and and then we have a vehicle disabled, which adds to it, you know, or you can't just leave the vehicle, you know. So we were stuck there for a pretty long period of time because we had to wait for someone to someone came out to help us recover the vehicle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was map two. Yeah, we came out. Yeah, I remember specifically. Um, we came out, brought out. I think we didn't bring anybody, we didn't call any wrecker or anything. We just uh used one of the tow bars and towed that thing out of there because it was still rolling.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so that stands out to me. And you know, again, I don't know exactly what our mission was that night or if we had one other than was to prevent people from placing IEDs along the the main the main avenues and uh but yeah, there's a few other moments that kind of stand out. But I mean the missions the missions themselves don't really stand out, I guess. It's more of you know what results from trying to accomplish the mission that that kind of stands out.
SPEAKER_01:Now, as far as uh when your platoon took casualties, does that fall on you to pack gear, write the family, that kind of stuff, or is that fall on higher than you? Is that on Captain Weiler?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, that was um, you know, that is on the you know the platoon commander, you know. Now certainly the captain, the company commander has his own things that that they do, but like when we lost Savage, for instance, I mean he's he's the only one that we lost. Um you know, I I wrote the family and and did all that.
SPEAKER_01:And so yeah, that's definitely something that not trying to twist the screws, but I am curious how how did you prepare for that? How did you do that? Because that's something I definitely didn't have to do.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean it's hard, and I don't know that there is a way to prepare for it because I you know Savage was I knew Savage well. I mean, like McPherson, I mean I know he was a junior Marine too, but like you're you're close, you're close, you're naturally just closer to certain people, depending on you know what happens during the pre-deployment process, and you're just kind of or certain, you know, he was the machine gunner in my vehicle, you know. So I saw I was with him all the time. I had met his white wife prior to the deployment, you know, so I knew the family, and and just having to having to ride that, and obviously, you know, your job is to you know, the mission is to is to bring everybody home. And when you don't do that and you have to convey that to their family, it's you know, it's difficult, obviously. And there's nothing that I don't think there's anything that could prepare you to do that, especially when you know I was, you know, at the time 22 to 24, you know, and I'm 26. So I mean that's we're contemporaries, you know, as far as that goes. So I mean it's I didn't have any life experience that prepared me to do that. Right. Of course of course I had Captain Weiler to lean on and and that type of thing, but I think the you know, I just when I wrote the letter, it it was just you know, you just try to do it from the heart, you know, and just and just you don't want to beat her around the woods with what happened.
SPEAKER_00:Uh reading uh unremitting, I that was one in the first part of the book, it was it for I don't remember exactly why, but it was struck it struck me, uh kind of going over how the ages of everybody and how you know how young we were, but at the same time, there's like a time warp while you're in because you know, you know, I was 23 at the time, but anybody that was in their late 20s seemed like a grandpa, you know, I was like, oh, these are these are sage individuals that have all this life experience, but they're actually only like five years older than you. And uh it's was that was that a a little bit of a different feeling um for for perspective, especially since being an officer, you would have gone through college and so you would have had a little bit more worldliness underneath your belt. And so did you did you sense that distance in age as much as I was describing there? Or were you seeing kind of like, oh no, this person's only a few more, this two years younger than me?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I know what you were saying with the time warp. I mean, everyone seemed old. I mean, I remember um you know, Gunny Cook seemed old, and he was, you know, I don't know what he was. I mean, he was probably 29.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say 28, 29, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:He was a young, he was a young staff NCO. And then you had you had people like, you know, Staff Sergeant Coleman at the time, who was a little older, you know, and Gunny Crutcher at the time were a little older, and I'm talking like probably 33, probably 32 or 33.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, grizzled at 30.
SPEAKER_05:But that's some hard miles on him, you know. Um but then you have you have the guys that you look at like man or escalante, and it's like a lot of times it's that physical appearance, like holy shit, like this guy is legit, like maybe 18.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_05:But they look even younger, you know. Some of the guys we had, I mean, the young ones that we did have were we had some young looking guys. Oh so I think with that, I mean it's like, yeah, I I'm a lot older, I'm a lot more seasoned than this guy, but then you got the guys that have that, you know, for some reason that that one deployment makes everybody that much just salty, you know. So it's like you guys, you guys I I kind of viewed as you know, we were kind of one and the same, basically, as far as age goes. I mean, yeah, like you said, you were what 23 or yeah, whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was your age, I was 26. We were we were the same.
SPEAKER_05:So there was, yeah, there was a we had Wade, you know, was in there, and then Escabel was a little bit older in Hodges. So like we were all there was a lot of us that you know, it wasn't me being 26 with you know 60, 18 year olds by any stretch. Yeah, so I but but you know, Marine Four years are definitely different than like dog, they're like dog ears for sure, yeah. So um, but it's just funny looking back on it that yeah oh yeah he was a he was a seasoned veteran you know he was you know he was the old man and he's twenty eight you know but yeah no just going back to Savage I mean that's something you know me twelve I'm I mean that's something that forever will you know just and you talk about losing people and stuff but until it happens there's there's really no way to to prepare anybody for it and then obviously communicating that with with the family is just you know one of the hardest things that I've had to do.
SPEAKER_01:I can imagine that uh there there is everybody has their own little silos and you know we've talked to some guys who were gunners or drivers and they only saw it through that perspective it is exquisitely different when you are in charge and much of it falls on your shoulders and then you have to do something like contact the family which you don't really have any pre-existing relationship with even if you met them that that weight has to be if you like what you've heard this is a multi part episode make sure you listen to the rest of the story