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Constant Combat
This veteran-led podcast highlights the experiences of Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, starting with their harrowing 2004 deployment to Ramadi; a 9 month combat tour which resulted in the highest casualties in a single deployment - a deployment that most Americans have never heard about. Through candid conversations surrounding these events, the series also explores earlier experiences that shaped the Marines, emphasizing their grit, humor, and humanity while aiming to honor their stories authentically.
Constant Combat
Easy Street was Definitely Not Easy - Ayron Cox
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Ayron Cox paints the path through Ramadi 2004. It's a candid, granular look at modern urban combat, CQB and breaching under fire, javelin employment in a city fight, and the mental health gaps that still shadow returning veterans.
Naming a daughter after a fallen leader preserves a legacy of courage and care. His message is not tidy but true: war rewires you... tactics save you... and brotherhood sustains you.
• rushed deployment, missing gear, fast acclimatization
• patrols on Route Michigan and fighting on Easy Street
• MAP tactics, cross-training on TOW, javelin, machine guns
• CQB lessons from security forces instructors
• April 6 contact, casualty runs, Conde wounded
• soccer field chaos, ammo management, suppression
• bridge overwatch, and near-miss orders
• firing a Javelin at a house
• Oliver North on scene, vehicle hits, and raids
• transition to Junction City and return flights
• survivor’s guilt, PTSD, lack of reintegration care
• sustained brotherhood and regular mental health check-ins
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If you like what you heard, please subscribe on your favorite podcast service or follow our webpage for direct downloads @ https://www.buzzsprout.com/2525088
If you are a member of Weapons Company or someone with a story about Weapons Company 2/4 in 2004, please come tell some stories with us - 20 mins or 20 hours! Help paint the canvas of an archival story for others to know what it was like. Contact us @ RamadiPodcast@gmail.com, or via the podcast website above.
All music used with permission by soundbay: https://www.youtube.com/@soundbay_RFM
All right, man. Introduce yourself. Tell everybody what rank you were, your name, and what platoon you were with in 2004.
SPEAKER_03:Well, my name is Aaron Cox. I was part of Mobile Assault Platoon or Map 3, uh, part of 2nd Battalion 4th Marines. Uh, we were in Ramadi in 2004. Uh, we had a lot of stuff leading up to that, uh, post-9-11 or pre-9-11, post-9-11. So, yeah, we I remember that we deployed in I believe February 2004.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, man, that's accurate. Um, February 16th.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it was right after uh Valentine's Day. Um I remember that. We got to Kuwait. Uh we were there, we did our climate, we acclimatized to the um the region, I guess. Um I just know everybody was just kind of like fucked up because we were just thrown into this. We didn't have a lot of prep time. I think we had what three to three to five months prior to being deployed um on our workup. Then we were there, and then we took that long trip up there with I forget the but the unit that was attached to us. I know that myself, McKinsey, and I think Kondi, we were in a vehicle with this lieutenant. She was a female, she didn't have any fucking clue what she was doing. Oh, weird. But we got were you in a hum?
SPEAKER_01:You were in a Hum V with a random other lieutenant.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh, we we were doing a mobile convoy up there. Yeah, yeah. Um I don't know, like I forget what unit it was. Maybe it was uh truck company or comp company, but I remember that the rest of the unit that was with us, our unit, they forgot like their night vision or something.
SPEAKER_01:There was that or and their flak jackets or something, but she it wasn't it wasn't so much that they forgot it, it was that it was in a con X box that a lieutenant that was back in the rear forgot to fill out the paperwork and it never made it. So yeah, they never got it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I remember the female. Uh I just remember Condi. I don't know if you guys have talked about Condi. He was he was a big joker. Um, he was always just real direct, but he was like, looked at me and McKinsey's like, why is this dumb bitch wearing because she had um all of her shotgun shells right here on the front of her flak jacket? Oh, nice. And he's like, he's like, Why is this bitch? She's gonna get shot and die. So um there was that. Uh yeah, but we got up there to Hurricane Point. Uh, we settled in. I remember that I think we relieved the National Guard.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was a Florida National Guard unit. That was why it was called Hurricane Point. They were the called the hurricanes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so I remember we were there a couple days or something. We went out on patrol um and we started getting shot at. And I remember like they were just running around like they didn't have no clue what the fuck was going on. I remember dismounting and tripping on a toe strap and falling out.
SPEAKER_01:Uh Shelton was there. When was this? Was this with your this was with the handoff with the National Guard you guys are getting shot at? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It was just like little pop shops. And I think that's when um that one gunner Ocampo, uh, he was like the first one of our of our unit of weapons company to actually shoot. Okay. But then after that, he was just useless for the rest of the war. He he kind of went like a wall in his mind. So uh I remember that after that things just kind of transitioned smoothly. We did our patrols. Um, I remember la back then I was kind of um I kind of got in trouble for a lot of shit. Like, if you needed it, I could get it. You know, um that's not a bad guy to have, man. Well, okay, so there was the TVs, there was the whiskey that I got for um Captain Weiler, and uh Fresh Heart Mac. I got him a TV, all that kind of stuff. So um I definitely got my hands in a lot of different things.
SPEAKER_01:Do I want to ask where you got these things?
SPEAKER_03:No, okay. No, all right, cool. They they were acquired. Who was it? I think it was Glenny Mararke that told me that there's only one thief in the world, and everybody else is just trying to get their shit back. So um uh definitely acquired some stuff, but I I just remember that we didn't have too many engagements throughout the war, other than like April 6th and 7th, and then right after we were like transitioning to go home, I think um August. Yeah, uh before we moved over to uh was it Junction City, the big one right on the other side.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they ended up calling it Camper Moddy eventually, but it was Junction City to us when we were there. Yeah, there was like a glass factory, or at least that's what we called it. There was a factory building, and then right beyond that factory building was uh Junction City, the army yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I remember like I think that honestly, for as young as we were, because I think what we were in our early 20s, most of us, yeah. Yeah, we were in our early 20s. Um, I think that even though we didn't agree with a lot of stuff that the leadership did, we had some very interesting characters like Rapazo and other people. I think that they actually prepared us. And um, I don't know about your senior Marines, but mine like Weber and Cutter and them, they were complete assholes. They were complete assholes. Um, but I think that everything that they put us through prior to being deployed, Okinawa and all stuff, I think that they really prepared us for what we got into on April 6th and 7th, because I don't really remember anybody at weapons company really freaking the fuck out. And yeah, you know, we just we handled it.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, most people so let me reel you back there just for a second. Do you remember anything anything like because you guys did patrols and missions before April 5th, 6th, 7th, all that stuff? Do you remember anything from any of those early missions? Any of the uh QRF responses or anything like that?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, we would do I think it was 12 on, 12 off. We would do route Michigan, um, the arches, all that kind of stuff. We would go out and do typical patrols. We would go into um Corden Knox. Uh we'd do escort missions out to um what was the other camp?
SPEAKER_01:It was outpost combat outpost was where Echo and Golf were, and then Snake Pamp. Out further, like uh outside it was um there's Altacottam Air Base, if that's what you're talking about, like going far away. Or Blue Diamond.
SPEAKER_00:There's a diamond, there was a smaller community too.
SPEAKER_03:It might have been Blue Diamond, it was the one that like we actually like did escort missions out there. They were like a full-on base. We went out there several times. Um, it was more of an army base. There's out past Lake Habania. I know that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, that would probably be Altacata Mayor Base because Altacata Marbase was past Habania. Okay, yeah, and a little south of Habania in Fallujah.
SPEAKER_03:So yeah, we we would do patrols. I mean, we get pop shots here and there. Um we did mostly um I forget what they call them, where we go out and interact with the public and stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Um it's like your security and security and stability operations, yeah, winning hearts and minds.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so we did a lot of those. Um, I know that we also did uh patrols up on the bridges and stuff. I just we we just did a lot of missions, and I think so.
SPEAKER_01:Specifically before the the first battle of Ramadi, which technically kicked off on April 6th, anything? Do you remember any like specific missions or any first contact or anything like that prior to that? Just from you personally. If you don't remember it, it doesn't matter. I was just curious if you remember any of those early missions.
SPEAKER_03:I know we were doing a lot of raids to um you know find back members, back members, uh, which was part of Saddam's inner circle. Uh we we did several of those. I remember one night we were, I think we started on Route Michigan, and then we moved in. Um, I don't have the map on this computer, but if I had it, I would show you. We were we we got pop shots from a window um as we were coming back in from QRF. But outside of that, there's really no missions that stand out. Um okay. No, nothing, nothing really that stood out. All right.
SPEAKER_00:Well then uh you had uh mentioned in the early when you first first started your uh your story there, Cox, that um that we had a very limited and short spin-up uh before we went over. And uh what do you what do you remember of kind of in and part of that uh kind of the leading question is is we didn't have tactics. You know, we were an early part of the I mean we had tactics, but we were redefining what the tactics looked like. What do you remember of that first phase of getting our feet back feet underneath us, figuring out the new tactics, uh coming, you know, deploying from vehicles, uh, as you said, coordinate searches and stuff like that?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think a lot of that started. So um, I know most of us were just fresh to the fleet when 9-11 kicked off. Um, and then we deployed to Japan. And I think around that time we got Fondi, who was um what was it called? Uh he was security forces. Security forces, and then he was trained with uh close quarter combat, and then we had Gunny Markey, who was trained in close quarter combat. So uh that's when the MAP platoons were implemented, and we learned vehicle dismounts and close quarter combat tactics. I was reading somewhere um a couple years ago that our unit, you know, 2-4 was the one that really redefined modern urban combat with all the tactics that we did. I remember that we did a lot of QRF missions, not missions, but uh like recalls when 9-11 first came up. Then when we were over in Japan playing the waiting game, we we trained a lot. We were out in the field a lot, and then so it was a lot of like mount town, it was ranges, it was weapon maintenance, it was becoming more proficient and stuff. I know that you gave a lot of classes on toes, the tow gun and stuff like that. Um I think that was you, right? Anti-armor and toes, yeah, both. Yeah, and then I know that like Cook and a lot of other of the senior Marines gave a lot of um classes on cross-training us in machine guns and stuff. Um, because with the mobile assault platoons, we were expected to have like tow guns and javelin guns, but also be proficient in machine guns. So um that that was a good good workup for us because we were we could all pretty much do everybody's job proficiently, but maybe not like the way you are, because you're just like a genius with that kind of stuff. You're very surgical. I don't know about that. I have a good memory. Okay, you have a good memory, but you were also a good teacher, which also is still like with Condi and a lot of our senior Marines, and you you um taught us a lot of stuff that saved our lives, you know. And then you had people like me that just fucked around, like got in a lot of trouble.
SPEAKER_01:So um so specifically while you're talking about that, talking about Condi being a teacher, do you have any specific stories about him teaching stuff? I'm I'm actually very interested in that because me and him were mostly colleagues more more than we were and friends, more than we were like I he didn't teach me much because I we were separate, we were in several platoons.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know if it was you two, but you guys used to go round and round about things. Was it you and him that used to be Shelton? Him and Shelton used to go round and round, but they were like wicked things.
SPEAKER_01:And I know it was the same. We love to argue, but we also and we were close friends. I mean, hell, I got promoted to sergeant because of his recommendation. So I mean, you know, we were very close.
SPEAKER_03:I just remember when he first came to us when we were in Okinawa, he was very awkward, but he transitioned well. And I I know I see why they made him squad leader because he was very knowledgeable about the security forces aspect. He would he would train us hard, he would teach us like don't ride the wall if you go into a room because bullets travel down walls, you know. Um he would teach us all these like little things like look for mouse holes, like they might be uh taking pop shots through like bricks or like breaks in the wall or something. So he trained us very hard. He was kind of an asshole, but he was very fair. He was one of those leaders that I know Silton, I know Silton McKenzie, and I when they gave us when we did the interview with the newspaper after, we all said the same thing. He was one of those leaders, much like you. You led by example, you never asked us to do anything that you weren't willing to do yourself. So I think that that's what got a lot of people his trust.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:When we trained with sim rounds and stuff, uh, he would just like shoot us. You know, I don't know if you remember training with uh oh yeah, the sim rounds.
SPEAKER_01:Oh in the as well, the our biggest time we ever did that was in that uh sort of makeshift town that we had in the backyard of of uh of San Mateo and Camp Pendleton. And that was that was great. We had all those sim rounds. I didn't know that he shot you guys, but that's awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, um, because he was like, because uh I don't know if you know this. Him in Gun Gunny Maraki was actually his instructor before when he was doing close quarter comebacks, and he was like he's like Gunny used to shoot us in the hands. Like if we would come around the door the wrong way, he would shoot us in the hands, you know. Yep, he taught us like breaching tactics, and I can honestly say that because of their leadership, we never really had any fatal other than Condi, we didn't have any fatal incidences going into buildings, we did have fatal uh incidences because of the IEDs. I know that we worked really hard, our leadership and our command.
SPEAKER_01:Well, while I've got you while I've got you on it, and you're talking about close quarters combat. Do you remember the first time you had to use it? Or any instances that stand out.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, we use it every time because I was the one that had the breaching kit, so I would normally breach the door. Um, if we needed a breach, um I just always know that it it sucked to be the second guy because you're the one that's gonna get shot. I mean, but we use them several times on um missions, like when we do Corden Knox. Um, if we had viable intel, um, we used them during that time to just we we executed things out how we were taught, I guess. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Do you remember a specific story of used of doing that stuff?
SPEAKER_03:Um, I believe it was on April 6th. Uh the day Condi got shot actually. Um we it was the house that we went into right before he got shot. Um, a self-makency vigil and condi entered into a house. It was a back member's house. He had blasting caps, weapons, all that kind of stuff. I remember that Condi got mad at something, and he like threw a bag of flour at the guy. So I just remember that there was white shit everywhere. No, he had actually gotten shot before that, and then that's like they wanted him to sit out, but you know him, he's just a hard charger. But definitely we did everything in there, and then there are what else?
SPEAKER_01:So you talked about breaching specifically, and you when you say breaching kit, did you have like are you talking about a pry bar and a sledgehammer and all that shit? Or are you talking about like explosive breaching?
SPEAKER_03:No, um, not explosive breaching, like the pry bar, crowbar, uh axe, all that stuff. Yeah, I had all of that sledgehammer.
SPEAKER_01:Did you run around and carry that while we were going down alleyways and shit?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it was uh it was, I don't know if you guys had one, but it was all black. Yeah, we it was an all black one.
SPEAKER_01:We did, yeah, eventually. Uh we got it after April, actually. We did not have it before April. All we had was a sledgehammer.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh we uh we I don't know how we got ours, but again, I was acquiring shit from supply and yeah, stuff like new boots, candies, all kinds of stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01:So I don't know exactly when we got ours, but so just specifically you telling this story about going to this house and with Condi and all that. Did you have to breach that house, or did you guys just go in, kick door down, and go in, or what'd you do?
SPEAKER_03:Uh the fighting had already engaged. All I know is the guy was in there. I I know that we didn't have to breach the door, but we did go in like we were breaching. Now that you think about it, uh a story, I don't know if you guys were out with us. Um and I don't remember if you remember like I don't know if you remember how unlucky Silton was or is just um of all the places in Iraq, he found the one wet sinkhole that got the vehicle stuck in there, and we had the female lionesses out there with us. I do remember that we were taking some pop shots during that time. Silton did get a vehicle stuck in the middle of a desert in a wet hole.
SPEAKER_01:So he's the only guy who can find mud in the desert.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but other than that, I just think it went really smoothly. I know a lot of us fell a lot of fucked up shit on April 6th and 7th. Some of us lost friends. I do remember that there was a guy who he was 17, he had just gotten into country like three days ago, got out there. He actually had gotten shot in like both arms, legs, and then like got shot in the head. Did I remember? Like, we carried his body back.
SPEAKER_01:You're talking about one of the Echo Company guys. So just to kind of walk back here on April 6th, uh map one had gone out and done a coordinate knock that morning, early in the morning. And then about midday, golf company got ambushed. I'm sorry, it was golf company, not echo company, in the south of the city. And then you guys responded first, and Rainmaker was shortly thereafter, although Rainmaker got ambushed before they could get to you. And so you're talking about one of the golf company casualties specifically.
SPEAKER_03:No, so I remember we went out and I think we picked up McPherson because it was either Gentile or McPherson, whoever I think it was McPherson because uh he had lost his jaw or something.
SPEAKER_01:So McPherson McPherson was much earlier, actually. Uh McPherson's IED that blew his jaw off was March 13th. Was that or maybe it was Gentile that we went out? It's easy to blend it all together, dude. And then yeah, Gentile, Gentile was on during the Battle of Ramadi, April 6th.
SPEAKER_03:I I remember the the specific 17-year-old kid I was referencing was there was just a lot of shit going on. I know that Condi, uh McKinsey and I were just running around, and I know there was an army officer and a uh first sergeant. They were hiding behind a vehicle, and they were trying to get people in tracks and stuff. And I know that during that time, Map 3 was running, you know, uh back and forth between Junction City taking casualties, but yeah, it all kinds of blends together, you know, like you were saying. That I mean, now what that's 21 years ago that a lot of us don't think about it.
SPEAKER_01:So no, it's all good, man. That's the point. We're trying to flesh out the story from everybody's different perspective, and your perspective is helpful. Do you remember any specific details of how the sixth kind of started for you guys? Like when you first took first contact.
SPEAKER_03:All I remember is we were on QRF at that time. We got called, we went out. Uh, I believe it was Echo Company that had their line split, or was it golf company?
SPEAKER_01:Golf Company had their line split in the south of the city by Easy Street, which is where you guys went. But Echo was also split into two pieces. Uh, they had a sniper team up in the Sophia district that got uh separated from the main element, and their QRF element got pinned down and they were in two separate places.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so it was golf company. I remember we were going down an alley, uh, somebody opened Up on us. I'm not sure if it was Kelly or Blake, whatever other machine guns. They were lighting them up. Lachard uh jumped out, and we we were just doing covering fire. We were taking people back and forth, like I said. That's how it started out. I mean, nobody could have predicted that day waking up like that. Sure.
SPEAKER_01:And when you say took fire, were you was it small arms fire? Did you get a heavy machine gun? I know uh other platoons they had coordinated positions with medium and heavy machine guns like RPKs and uh there's a dishka at one point, all AKs. Small arms, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Small arms to what I remember. What I remember because yeah, it was small arms, it was I believe to the left of us. Um, and we were just doing, like I said, um, casualty transport, and then we got brought into it heavy over at the soccer field, yeah, and all that kind of stuff. Easy Street was definitely not easy at all. Um Michigan was always dangerous. Yeah, there was a yeah, there was a lot of. I just remember that the soccer stadium was like pure chaos, everything bleeding up to that was chaos.
SPEAKER_01:Um so yeah, you can correct me because you were there, but to my understanding, almost the majority of your fighting and transports were near Easy Street mostly. On the sixth, all your fighting by the soccer fields was on the seventh. And I think if I remember correctly, the XO, RXO, was with you on the 7th.
SPEAKER_03:Um, the seventh. So on the sixth, we had fighting all the way over the we had some um at the soccer stadium. I did not go out on the seventh. I stayed back on um pooch duty, stayed back for firewatch. Um, I didn't actually go out. I know that um that's when uh Cummings, Marshall Cummings, had gotten shot and he uh took a bullet in his lung.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I had not gone out that day. I actually stayed in because I know that they were out doing like a PsyOps mission. They had people up in trees shooting all kinds of stuff. I know that that's when that day happened. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um interesting. How come how come for you to stay behind? I don't know that we had people stay back. At least we didn't stay have people stay back. Every platoon operated a little differently.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we always have somebody stay back. I stayed back that day on April 7th. Okay, um, I know April 6th, I was out there, but yeah, April 7th, I wasn't there. So Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And then kind of bringing you back again, we're jumping back and forth between the two, but bringing you back to the sixth, I know you were there when Condi got shot through the shoulder. Do you remember most of the events or no?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so the bathhouse guy, when we went in, they had we had gone in and then they had secured it. So Condi, me, and McKinsey had actually gone out, and there was a long walk, not walkway, uh roadway, and this guy he he popped out like have you ever seen that movie scary movie? Yeah, with uh where he's like full of comical. He like jumps out like that and then just shoots. And so, like, it got condi and then it like grazed McKinsey's tattoo that he just got before deployment, and then he started running off like this, and then we're like, what the fuck? Like, he started like it was a comical run because it he he was running like a retarded gazelle, and then so like that pissed off Condi, and I know that Brown had come up with his uh Mark 19, I think he was on that day, and was shooting down there like suppressive fire. Condi got patched up by I think Doc Dialka, and then that's when he got pissed off and went in there and started throwing flour at this guy. Oh, okay, that makes sense. So he was just he was just pissed off, but like I said, Condi just fought for the next couple days, then they put him on like restrictive duties and stuff. So yeah, yeah, it was he was pissed off, but I mean he had just gotten shot and stuff, so um there was uh I don't know who it was, but in those small communities, everybody knows what's going on, you know, and so I don't know what had happened, but there was a baby in one of the rooms that I guess the parents had been killed or something. Oh, somebody picked up the baby, gave it to the neighbor or something. There's just a lot of shit going on then. Yeah, but April 6th was just wild. I remember towards the end of the day, we were all exhausted, everybody was just like ready to go in. I know that we started just like refilling magazines then at that time because there were people scouted all over, nobody really had ammo that much anymore. I know that we had some ammo boxes in the back of our truck. Uh I know Lachard shot a Mark 19 round, no, not in Mark 19 round, 240 round at a guy on a bike that was shooting at him. Yeah, that's pretty much like it's all over the place, but I do have pictures. The pictures actually help a lot. Let me see if I pull those up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're good. This is an audio podcast. I'll take your pictures though later.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Uh I'm just gonna pull them up now so I remember because oh yeah, nice. Yeah, if it jogs your memory, that'd be good. Yeah, I'm a bit of a stoner now, so um, that's how I I was doing things.
SPEAKER_00:Um so Aaron, you brought up uh you briefly brought up the lionesses, which when you bring up the lionesses, I then think of the interpreters. Uh do you have any did you guys run out with the inter with the interpreters much, or did you guys were you one of the platoons that tended to work your way through it without the terps?
SPEAKER_03:No, we had one. I think his name was Bargash or something. Um, he was like the main interpreter. He was a big Iraqi guy that was kind of swallow.
SPEAKER_01:Um everybody always called him Rocco, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Rocco. His actual name was Bargash, but yeah, uh Rocco would go out with us quite a bit. We had a couple times that we did have we were out with the lionesses um the day that Selton got stuck, but there was just a couple times um that that we did that. Nothing much to talk about. They were kind of useless because they didn't know what to do. Because I guess they were pogue, pogue females before we implemented um women into the O3. So they came out there, they weren't really like knowledgeable about what was going on.
SPEAKER_00:We had a I had a little bit of a different experience. The couple times that we threw down, they really stepped up and were able to. I mean, they weren't bounding with us. I would, you know, use them, use them more around the vehicles and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03:But like you said, all all the platoons operated different, so we definitely didn't have we didn't work with females much, but definitely we did work with Rocco a lot. There was another um another interpreter we had, he was kind of a skinny, a skinnier guy, but Cosm Wilbur. Yeah, I think that's what it was. So we didn't interact with pretty much anybody else other than that. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So so with your with your platoon, you guys had assigned truck teams. You guys always rode in the same truck every time.
SPEAKER_03:Uh mostly, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, it was our but I was gonna say, if I remember correctly, you were in the high back most of the time, right?
SPEAKER_03:No, um, I was in um enclosed one uh because I was Condi's I was Condi's driver, so it was me, Condi, Vigil, and McKinsey in a truck. Sometimes we would switch out drivers, but um, I was mainly Condi's driver. Who was your gunner? Brown, yeah. So on the Martin I'm okay. The only day I wasn't Condi's driver was one day um I think Neil stayed back, and the day the Condi got hit by the IED, I was actually driving Gunny Crutcher. Okay. Um, and I I had initially driven over the IED first, and then heard it go off, and then we flipped around and stuff like that. But those were the only two times that we weren't fully like a full truck squad.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, interesting. So, as far as your feeling of it, it sounds like you kind of filled in where you could, and you were doing a whole lot of different things, sometimes coordinate searches, sometimes kicking down doors, sometimes you were driving. Uh, did you feel like you had like reasonably complete information, or did you always feel like you were kind of in the dark and you just did what you were told and and moved about your day? Um because you kind of talked about you talked about Intel in the beginning, and I'm I was just curious how much you felt like you kind of knew when we were going out on mission.
SPEAKER_03:We we knew when we were going on missions. Condi kept us very much up to date. I don't know if you remember, but like back then I had like I was severely ADHD back then, so like yeah, I would run, I would do all kinds of stuff. I never really got tired and stuff, so I was all over the place, kind of like a crackhead. But um, the intel that we got, I think that was sufficient. I don't think that we did anything that we could ever be tried on, like bad intel. So I think that our leadership passed it down very well. Except it was the one time, the one time that we were on the bridge. I believe it was myself and I want to say Privatar. We were up on the bridge and they were having workers. I don't know if you remember they had workers to work on the bridge, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, they were trying to get those the those the whatever those fucking things are called, the locks or whatever they were. Sluice gates. Yeah, thank you. Sleice gates to open up, and they never could. They were working on them all the time.
SPEAKER_03:I remember that we were told if anybody comes up there to shoot them, but something like that day, it didn't feel right. So we had called down to company, they had not the battalion didn't update the the new list of who was supposed to be up there, so that very easily could have ended badly for one of us. We we double checked and it actually saved our ass in the long run. Well, and saved those workers too. If you didn't smoke them, so yeah, I mean, I think that we had very good intel, we had good leadership that did their best, even like you were secondary leadership, you know, um, just because of your knowledge and stuff. I I felt that on top of having good leadership, we all relatively got along. Like we could all hang out, we were like brothers that liked each other, but then also didn't like each other at the same time. But I think that that year long that we spent in Japan on the ships and stuff like that, we had all you know just grown together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there is something about bonding through pain, and uh most of that time we spent on ship was a lot of pain. So you get to know each other really well. Uh you talked about you talked about Condi passing Intel. Did you guys do like uh pre-mission briefs? Did you guys look over maps or do sand tables or anything? Yeah, we did uh we looked at maps.
SPEAKER_03:We're he's like, we're gonna go down this way. That's good. You did like route planning. Good. Yeah, we knew everything because, well, if you remember Rock Michigan was always IED heaven, easy street wasn't. There was a street, I forget what it was, but it was right next to the river. Yeah. Um I forget the name of it.
SPEAKER_01:Nova was the first part, Racetrack was the second part. Um, there's a couple others, but that's that's the main two, Nova and Racetrack.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so we would plan out like Condi was just he was just a really good tactician because like he's the reason why I read The Art of War every year. Ever since he introduced it to me in 2004, I've read it every year. Nice. Um, and I actually have given a copy to my daughter and my two older sons. He would say, This is our contingency plan if this goes south. Like he was very good at like foreseeing things, you know. Like some of us have talked about, like, we actually think that he knew that uh he was gonna die before he did because he started like when people know that they're gonna commit suicide, they start giving things away and stuff like that. Yeah, but he, I think in his in his head, he knew that. So there were comments he would make like about doing his life insurance and all that stuff. I think that at the end of your life you just know, and so he was a guy that just planned a lot of stuff. That's interesting, you know.
SPEAKER_01:So it sounds like he accepted that maybe death was going to happen and they would started preparing for it before it even happened.
SPEAKER_03:That's I had not heard that, so he has a chance to go home, and like being uh, because I still keep in contact with his family, he was their only son, and so he could have gone home, but he chose not to. He chose to stay with us and fulfill the mission, and I think along somewhere that along those that corridor between getting shot and stuff, he just knew that that that's where he was gonna end up, you know. One of the greatest leaders that I've ever had, greatest people I know, like my oldest daughter, her name is Kin Lee, and his name was Kenneth Lee. So, like, we actually named her after him.
SPEAKER_02:That's cool.
SPEAKER_03:Um, we so after he had uh passed away, we did get Corporal Mark Ryan, who ended up prospecting, I guess, with 2-5 or something, and then lost his life over there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he was killed in in November of that same year in uh IED explosion as well. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I keep in contact with his mother and stuff. Condi was just a great person. He made sure that we had all the intel that we needed because you guys as leaders knew that we didn't need to know everything, but only enough to like we we needed to know enough, you know.
SPEAKER_01:So I can't speak for Condi, but uh, we did talk tactics a lot. We talked a lot of uh all kinds of shit all the time. Um, but we did talk tactics a lot, and we all we both thought the same thing. Like, if I take a round through the face, I want you, I want to know that you know some of the plan so that way you can get your ass out of there, right? Do you remember any time when the plan went south and everything you guys thought kind of went wrong? I feel like everybody had one of those stories where you like you went out for a specific thing or something, or you had an idea and it all went to shit and you had to adapt on the fly.
SPEAKER_03:Oh I only remember the only thing that I remember is April 6th, that kind of all went to shit. And the day that Condi, the day that Condi was hit by the IED, so we were actually on our way back because we were going to change over. Yeah, and this is something that I talked about in therapy a lot because some of us have survivors guilt and stuff, and I blamed Captain Weiler at the time a lot for this because we were set to go back be and and change over, but we had gotten called to go out, and so as we're driving back out to support whatever group or whatever whoever needed us, I drove over the IED and then it it went off, and it I know it like messed up knackers and vigil um and got Bondi. I remember like feeling guilty for driving over that. It was something that it took me like a long time to get over.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_03:I remember that we put him in my vehicle and we got him out to what was the furthest base out from us? Was it Jessica?
SPEAKER_01:Combat combat outposts.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we got him to combat outpost, they got a helicopter out there and they tried to lifeball item. But I know for many years I blamed Captain Weiler because he was the one that made us go back out there when we were supposed to come in. And I mean, we were already tired and everything because we did um it like we would do six to six and then six to six. So we did the night, but then my therapist says, I can't I can't blame him for that because he didn't know what was gonna happen. He was just following orders and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm interested if you do you remember any more details of the situation? Because what so here's what here's what I remember and what people have now told me. You guys were out all night, sort of patrolling route Michigan, like anti-IED ops, more or less. Like you didn't you didn't have a specific like go to this house or anything, you're just kind of out and about. And you guys were getting to the end of it, sun was coming up. Your plan was to go to breakfast over at Junction City. There was a call over the radio. Nope, we're gonna do one more, one more rundown Michigan, out to the arches and back, and then you're done. So I'm I'm curious. Do you feel like Captain Wyler made that call? I'm curious why you blamed him specifically.
SPEAKER_03:I I don't know. I I think that it's always easier to blame somebody else. Like I felt that like for years that I drove over the IV, I should have seen it, but you you know that um, and I don't know how many civilians watch this, there's just trash everywhere, so it's right, it's hard to distinguish like what is what out there.
SPEAKER_01:Even in America, drive down the street and pretend like there's an explosive hidden in everything, and you start to realize there's a bush everywhere, there's a soda can everywhere, there's a fucking everything everywhere, so anything can blow up. So you can't pretend like everything's gonna blow up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and so I I think I blamed him because if he would have just let us go, sent out another team, or the team that was supposed to relieve us, Connie would have still been there. But I I think, like therapist that I gotta forgive and let go. And I know that that's something Captain Weiler had to deal with. I mean, being a leader is kind of like being a parent if your kid gets hurt or something. You carry that guilt around with you, and yeah, so I I just had to work through that, but definitely the survivor's guilt. Like, I know that it's something I don't talk about. Like, I recently got married, I don't talk to her about that, I don't talk to the kids about it just because it's a part of my life that is very painful because we lost what 36 people on that deployment, 30 some people.
SPEAKER_01:The count varies everywhere. It's uh on the official signage, it's 34. On for most of us, we say 35 because almost all of us count Ryan as one of our people, uh, even though he didn't die specifically on our deployment, but he was with us for so long. Yeah, 30. There is some people who say 36 as well. If you count the engineers, it goes up to 38. So it's yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Because I mean, like I said, a lot of us on the deployment to Japan, some of us got like me, I was on ships platoon and stuff like that, and a lot of us just hung out with other people from like golf echo and stuff. And so I know Renosa, he was somebody who I was close to. He got uh killed over there. Sims, uh Sims and I were very close. You know, it just when you grow with people like that, it it just takes a toll on you, and you just don't want to bring up those memories.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I understand. I uh appreciate you doing this now for us recording its sake. I don't really know where to go from here necessarily because you're kind of you're talking about uh rough memories, but uh I guess a good segue to there was a lot of stress during that deployment. How did you how did you manage stress in case stay focused?
SPEAKER_03:Well, like I said, I'm ADHD, so everything back then was just squirrel. Um okay, then how did you keep yourself distracted? Um, I think that we we did have an Xbox out there, so we did we did play really low, and then we have the guys, our active guys up at the front that would sell like bootleg discs. So I know that a lot of us on our downtime we would watch the sopranos, you know. That was our thing to watch the sopranos. That's why I kept myself busy. I mean, especially when like you're on high alert, you don't really have that type of um time to like find a uh uh a place of rest. So it was just always like go, go, go, go. Yeah, so I mean I was just real squirrely back then, so my mind was always going.
SPEAKER_00:You brought up uh you brought you brought up being uh on on guard on top of the on top of the bridges. Was that prime was that what you know during the down week when we were on uh camp guard, I guess is the best way to call it. Is that where you usually were? Is that where you're posted up? Were you on the north tower mostly?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, there was I was on both sides. I don't know if you remember, but uh besides McKinsey, I'm the only other one to ever shoot a javelin missile.
SPEAKER_01:Shot a javelin missile. Tell that story, man. I didn't know that was you. I knew somebody did, I didn't know it was you.
SPEAKER_03:I think we were on the north side, there was a house, and we called it in and we're like, there are people in here, they have AKs, and they're like, light it up. So I shot uh javelin missile top attack into this house, then QRF came out. But yeah, I know McKinsey. I actually got a video of it. I'll I'll find it, I'll send it to you where he shot the javelin missile into a car.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I actually had that video, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Along which did yeah, so I did I did fire one of those things. Um, I don't know whatever happened to the casing because I wanted to bring. It back. Yeah. I shot a javelin missile top attack into a house. Nice.
SPEAKER_01:Now, I asked Latham about this at the time that we talked to Latham, but uh, if I remember correctly, like it's kind of difficult to shoot a building with a javelin because it's it has to lock onto something, right? Did you was it difficult for you to lock onto it, or did it go like it worked just just like it was supposed to?
SPEAKER_03:It it worked just like it was supposed to. It it didn't nice because I mean you you signed it in and then you just go, but it was not difficult at all. And I remember that they came out and they're like, uh, nothing's here. So I mean, still fired one.
SPEAKER_01:Nice. So you're saying the uh the QRF went in to do a battle damage assessment and there was nothing there, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But there were people that went in. I'm not sure if they went in and went out the back or whatever, but uh definitely we had uh seen them go in there and stuff in their like little makeshift pickups that they used, you know. Um, yeah, it was definitely an interesting day that day. Um, and I I believe Latham was on the other bridge. Uh-huh. I don't know if he told you he was on the other bridge and they were shooting across this way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I think Latham was up on the other bridge and they were shooting when we called it in and stuff. So nice. Yeah, it was crazy day. But other than that, I don't really remember much, but I like nowadays I keep myself busy running multiple companies and being a dad and now being a husband and stuff. What do you remember?
SPEAKER_00:What do you remember of the of the handoff, the left seat, right seat, getting into January, or not January, but July, July, August, September, September 11th is actually our one of our last days.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, what do I remember about that? Not a lot.
SPEAKER_03:I just remember us going over to uh Junction City, staying in those hooches. They were hot as hell. That's all I really remember. I know that Condi died um uh like a week after his birthday, and I think the day before his mom's birthday. After that, everything's just a blur until we came home. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's at least one thing that uh may trigger a little bit of a memory. There was uh so OP Library was attacked with explosives. They tried to they tried to rig it to blow, but it never did work. And then you guys got into heavy contact with and Oliver North was there at that time out by uh Saddam's Mosque. You guys were right off of Easy Street and uh Michigan, and there was a whole bunch of gunfighting right there, and it was it was shown on war stories a whole bunch as well. You remember that?
SPEAKER_03:I do remember that because I remember one of our gunners, I believe it was Kelly, shot a car and caught on fire, and I only remember that because there was the smell of burning flesh, which is one of it's it's up there with like burning hair smell. Um, I remember there was a tall high-rise building where we were taking pop shots, but I do remember because Oliver North was there and I had like my Bible and my thing, and he signed it. Yeah, I do remember that. We were right over by the mosque, yeah. Yeah, and out of memory that I yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you remember something at least you remember a car being on fire, but uh anything else stand out about that day or no?
SPEAKER_03:I think a vehicle, one of our vehicles got hit by an IED. Not maybe not map three, but um another platoon or company's vehicle got hit, got demolished. I remember we did some raids on some buildings, but other than that, I don't remember much of anything else. All right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we kind of talked about transitioning to Junction City, and then do you remember leaving?
SPEAKER_03:I think that we went to the airport. I just remember us going down to the airport, taking commercial flight home. I got sent in first class. I know that because I helped load the plane, yeah, and then I remember flying back because I remember us going out there was a was a mission because the plane broke down, we got stuck in Maine, then we were flying, we had to stop in Germany, and then there were some other issues. I think I actually have a picture of you and some of your guys, uh, because I don't know which officer brought it. Uh uh liquor bottle. We were having our last drinks, but um I remember I remember flying home because it was the first time I'd ever seen the northern lights. Oh yeah. Um, I remember that, but um, yeah, I don't know why I remember the specifics of that, but yeah, the northern lights going home and then going out there was we got stuck in Maine, and I remember that.
SPEAKER_01:We initially got stuck in Jersey, and then we landed in Maine and and Canada and somewhere uh somewhere in the UK. I think it was Shannon Air Force Base, but I'm not 100% sure. And uh and then we that was short. We didn't even get off the plane, and then we landed in Germany, and we all had to get off the plane because they were like it's leaking and it's like leaking shit everywhere. We all went in those shitty metal buildings that were freezing cold as well.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, I remember I remember because I bought a beer stein. I still have the beer stein that I bought in Germany.
SPEAKER_01:Um that's awesome. I never even went to a store, I was just sitting at a shitty like metal shed the whole time and smoking cigarettes with Latham half the time. Well, uh, what time did we go to Alaska? Because we or was that when we went to Japan?
SPEAKER_02:That's going to that's the other direction.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. But no, when we were in Germany, there were people selling the beer sides. That's how I got it. Yeah, nice. Um, and I don't know how it survived all of Iraq and then back home. But yeah, that's I just remember us going to the airport, getting on planes, flying back home. Yeah. And then adjusting.
SPEAKER_01:We flew commercial on United from Kuwait all the way back to March Air Force Base, which was weird. And it was weird that like a commercial plane landed at March Air Force Base and we all got off. But yeah, you just mentioned adjusting.
SPEAKER_03:I know when I got back, I know I got back, things were like awkward, just like when we came back from Japan. I don't know if you remember, like everything seems so much taller here than over there. And I know when I got back from Iraq, like I had a hard time sleeping, so I got an overnight job at Walmart. Um, and I worked there. You got an overnight job at Walmart while you were in the Marine Corps?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I did not know that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, so back, well, that's what really started because right now I don't really sleep. I go to bed at 3 a.m. I get up at 6 and I like work and all that kind of stuff, attend to the children and stuff, but I don't require a lot of sleep ever since we've come back from over there, but I feel rested and everything. I've got good blood pressure.
SPEAKER_01:That's good. So I'm glad you have a clean bill of health. How did the hell did you manage to get a job and have basically have two jobs right after coming back? And when did you get out? Because you had to have gotten out, or did you stay in? I don't remember what you did after after we got back in 2004.
SPEAKER_03:When we got back, I went to Edson Range and then um I went to Edson Range, and I was there until 2012. Oh, I didn't know wow.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't know you stayed in that long with Edson Range. That was you, Fernandez went there, right? And uh Latham or something.
SPEAKER_03:Latham went there, yeah. Me, Fernandez, and Latham.
SPEAKER_01:I think maybe Miranda or somebody else, like there's at least one other person who went to Edson Range.
SPEAKER_03:Me, Latham, and Fernandez were on the same range, yeah, and then they became PMIs and stuff like that. Um, I never wanted to be a PMI, I just like working on the range. Yeah, yeah, but I had after we got back from Iraq the first time, I I had two jobs the whole time after, like a lot of people did. They would work overnights or late after work and stuff. So that's crazy. Because let's see, I had my daughter in 2000, my son in 2007, so when I was on Edson Range, and then we had our third child 2009, and then 2013. So, yeah, you've been a dad since then. Cool, working.
SPEAKER_01:So just I'm trying to do the math in my head. So if you came in in what 2000 or 2001 and got out. Okay, and then you got out 2012, so you did 11 years? Yeah, nice, and so and did you stay on Edson Range from 05 all the way to 12?
SPEAKER_03:I went to Edson Range uh 06-07. Okay. I I was there, and then I did a lot of like a lot of TAD stuff, so I went and like redid my ASMAB, I did some college stuff because I had actually started going back to college while I was on Edson Range. Okay. So I just kind of played it really easy, the the rest of that deployment or my enlistment. And then the reason I got out because I was a full-time single father, yeah, and it was conflicting with being a dad and being a marine at the same time because I had no family. And my son's my son's mom was not part of his life, to not be part of his life. Yeah, I got out then and then started buying up little companies and stuff, and here I am today. Nice, man.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's good. Well, just to close this out, then if you look back, and I know you talked about being in therapy and stuff like that, so uh you may have a complicated answer to this question, but when you look back on it, do you think of it as a positive thing, a negative thing? Do you have bad feelings? What does it mean to you? Any of therapy? No, your service in the Marine Corps, and specifically 2004, but all of it.
SPEAKER_03:I personally think, and this is something that I talked about in therapy and with other of us, they prepared us on how to go to war and how to be effective, but they didn't teach us how to come back and adjust back to life. We did not get the proper the proper health care that we needed, and I think that they saw that a lot when soldiers were coming back and having severe PTSD and stuff, and how to manage anger. I don't think that they took that into account. I agree. On how to turn off that switch in our head where, you know, we're constantly evaluating places for threat risks, but not how to just go and enjoy a dinner with your family. So I think that we had our good, we had our bad, all of that kind of stuff through the Marine Corps. Um, I felt that like we would generally have done anything for anybody, but I think that the biggest regret was not getting the proper health care because that led some of us to suicide after it created a lot of uh what is it? I guess suicidal, not suicidal, um, was the word uh survivor's guilt. There was a point where I got really dark and I wanted to take my life because I just dealt with a lot over there, like the survivor's guilt of driving over the IED, but it wasn't rational thinking. So I think the main thing is if they would have just given us proper health care, I think a lot of us would be more effective than what we are today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Do you remember getting much in the way of medical care on the way out, or no? I mean, even after coming back, yeah, I don't either, unfortunately. It was about a 10-minute business.
SPEAKER_03:Here, I remember that we went out to, I think was a chapel on the south side of the base, and they're like, Hey, we're gonna re-aclimatize you to hear a way of life, all that stuff. But there was no like sitting down with the therapist or mental health person and saying, Hey, this is what I'm going to, and stuff like that. We didn't we didn't get that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I remember a very, a very kind and gentle test that I had to take. That it was a fill in the fill in the fill on the circle. Are you feeling sad? Yes, no.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, um that that I do remember us taking that too, and I don't think that that was proper health care for anybody.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it you know, as much experience as the United States may have in war, it seems like we haven't learned that lesson yet. And we were very early, we were the first group of people who are coming back with heavy combat experience, and so I don't know that anyone knew what to do, but you would think we would learn after doing this a few times that we would have some kind of system in place, and we just don't. We're kind of just dealing with the aftermath of it instead. Well, man, I'm I'm glad you're here, and uh I'm sorry that you went through such a dark time, but it seems like you're doing all right now, which is good, and you've gotten past it 21 years later. And I appreciate you sharing everything today. It's good, man. You got anything else you want to add on the back end?
SPEAKER_03:Uh definitely. Um, I don't know if you guys do it with with your guys, but I know that uh we have a group chat. Uh I know McKenzie, uh Fernandez has popped in, Vigil. Shelton, nobody knows where Shelton is. He's a doomsday prepper. He pops up every couple years and talks to Latham, but we check on each other uh quite regularly. You know, um Fernandez will just call and say, Hey, how are you doing? Like, just let you know I love you, Latham. Mr. Freaking Latham just calls sometimes, like, hey, how are you doing? Checking on your mental health, just letting you know that love you, you guys, stuff like that. So I think having that that bond has definitely kept me on the more sane side. And then, like, I got my kids and now my wife and stuff. I think that that all keeps me pretty much grounded now. That's good, dude.
SPEAKER_01:That's good to hear. All right, man. Well, we'll sign off, and uh maybe if we if you think of anything you want to share in the future, reach out, and otherwise we'll be in contact, dude. Thanks.
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