Constant Combat

True Grit with the Duke - Lucas Wells (Part 2 of 2)

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Part two with the XO, Duke Wells, going through a near‑fatal friendly fire, a catastrophic VBIED, and the daily grind of raids, politics, and broken systems. The thread throughout the chaos is team, leadership, and the choices that keep people alive. He closes with a view 20 years removed and what that means. 

• a tank round on Route Michigan exposing comms and deconfliction gaps
• the ambush‑magnet intersection at Nova and Gypsum
• cash payments, broken accountability, and moral injury from “projects”
• VBIED mass‑casualty response
• mosque sanctuary abuse, corrupt partners, and two‑faced local politics
• detainee catch‑and‑release and neighbors weaponizing tips
• left‑seat/right‑seat relief failures 
• no decompression, homecoming shock, and coping through gallows humor
• what endures: NCO leadership, unit cohesion, and earned pride




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The Tank Round That Nearly Killed Us

SPEAKER_01

Well historically, it's what Marines have always been asked to do, right? Here's a here's a shit sandwich, make it taste good, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what about the tank? I would like to hear that story. Who's out there? Whiskey too?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. I have not uh I've tried not to make too many of these podcasts about myself too much. But uh Sakaki talked a little bit about that that uh tank. Were you out there for that one?

SPEAKER_04

I don't remember you being attached to it. No, but it was in the COC. Yeah.

Unraveling The Friendly Fire And Comms Failure

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we were supposed to be uh we were supposed to be doing a snap VCP. We were told there was people that were going to be coming down Michigan. We were as far out past the arches to where we were basically at the edge of our AO, uh rubbing up against the the tank unit, apparently, that was covering Habany. And we had four dismounts out on the south side of Michigan. The rest of us had gone. There was a berm, and so we had hidden the vehicles down a berm and behind a little bit of brush, but not really. Anybody with any kind of optics should have been able to see the vehicles. But from just driving down the road, the headlights wouldn't have skylined it, but we didn't see any cars either. So that didn't really matter. Anyway, we were out there for hours, nothing going on, you know, people just kind of whispering and talking and whatever. And I was standing next to the vehicle and had just lit up a cigarette and was trying to hide it by smoking it inside of a pop can. And uh Takaki was standing there talking to me, and it we thought it was an RPG, right? No, we didn't know, we didn't expect it to be a main gun tank round. Come straight down the road, right in between the dismounts and our vehicle, and the shock wave from it was enough to knock Takaki off his feet and me over. And Sakaki's a big dude, and so it was you know close enough to do that. And it struck the ground behind us next to the wall, and immediately everybody started shooting back at it. And nobody knew, we didn't even know what we were shooting at. We were just shooting at the direction that we thought it came from. And my gunner was uh McCabe, and he was a machine gunner by trade, but he jumped on the toe site and turned on the thermal and looked. And he's like, I don't know what I'm looking at. Can I shoot it? And I was like, No. Uh and it hadn't quite fired up yet. I just jumped on the hood of the truck and jumped over and jumped down into the turret and looked, and I'm like, that's an Abrams. And and everybody, everybody's like, what? And then I started cracking off uh red star clusters, and that's when we heard the engine, the distinct jet turbine fire up and then start driving down the road. Uh I thought Harden and JD were going to actually kill that crew. I really did. I'm glad they didn't. I thought they were going to because everybody had their guns pointed at the tank the whole time, even after we knew it was an American tank. And they popped the hatch, and both of them jumped on top of that tank and were screaming at them. And JD was screaming at the commander. And I I was like, just don't kill him, right? Punch them, whatever. Don't don't shoot him. And we took pictures. And uh and I remember calling back, and I don't remember if you went to the radio or who did, but whoever it was didn't believe us. They're like, Are you sure? I'm like, I'm looking right at it. I'm looking right at it. And we came back, and I remember everybody else was cleaning up trucks and getting ready to like draw down for the night. It was, you know, whatever it was, two, three in the morning. And then going over to the battalion headquarters and showing them the pictures of the tank. And then they went and grabbed uh because they had shot it uh, you know, Miranda was there, and Miranda came over and and he was he was mad, everybody was mad, and they're like, Well, what do you want to do? I was like, not get shot at again. That's that's what I want. I want to not I want to be able to talk to these people on the radio so I don't get shot at again. I don't know what the hell happened. I heard later that somebody was on an airplane, uh, evac for whatever reason, and the driver, I believe, of that tank got evacued at the same time, and they said the only way they knew it was Marines is because we fired back immediately. Otherwise, they would have kept shooting, and that the gunner had that the gunner had chosen to fire the main gun round off center a little bit, and he would but he could see the guys, the dismounts that we had, and he thought he saw them digging on the road. I find that surprising personally, just because the optics on the Abrams are the actual best optics organic to the ground at the time.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

You should have been able to see good enough detail to know they weren't they weren't digging. Yeah, but either way, yeah, it worked out.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. But that that that was a crucial example of that that kind of highlights there was a total disconnect at the company level, even as far as communication past those AOs or even on the boundaries of those AOs.

SPEAKER_03

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

Uh uh, and thank goodness for that one that they missed. And so I think I think all that shit kind of eased that back. I think the army figured out after that, like, okay, just don't even do anything anywhere close to the Marines AO. So that maybe maybe save some lives in the future. Right. Uh on that shit.

SPEAKER_01

There was multiple friendly fire incidents, and I am I'm was always surprised there were not any significant casualties on either side. Uh yeah. Which which is good, but very surprising.

SPEAKER_04

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

For you personally, was there anything I you know, kind of dialing it back? I mean, obviously Battle of Ramadi is is things that are talked about often, but anything after that that kind of stands out to you?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, of course, you know, you talk about that little lull, and then um, and then we have Savage there in May. And it was really crazy. It didn't have we just immediately went back to this, say, we're gonna go back to like propping up the the local economy and getting the workers going. Because that's what we were doing out there for the bunch of those days during that time, including the day uh uh on Nova, uh the savager was killed, was go you know, doing that water pump at a school and going looking at the other guys, painting the other ones and coming back. So it's crazy that we were like, Oh yeah, I guess we're still gonna do all that shit. That was a shitty day, of course. Um the uh I don't know why we didn't just destroy that whole corner gypsum and Nova. We should have just gotten rid of that whole intersection and it would have saved us a lot of because that uh where Savage got hit was right there. And like how many, how many, how much stuff went down? Uh that that was where Nova for sure, but that intersection, it was clearly it was like you know, kind of elevated up the thing. It was just it was just a a magnet, you know, like probably been used for hundreds of years of them ambushing people there.

SPEAKER_00

I remember having a pucker factor any time we had to drive through that area.

unknown

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. The half doors. I remember we used to say, Oh, it's time to put the elbows in, you know, like as you do like with Texas and you have your elbow hanging out the side of the pickup truck and stuff. Like, oh, it might as well put them in here for this little stretch.

SPEAKER_03

Yep.

Savage, A Deadly Intersection, And Rising Frustration

SPEAKER_04

Um, and then again by that time, you know, they'd start they they didn't bury that one nearly as deep as they'd used to. That was a huge crater. Um, and that was that was a hard blow to take uh that day. And just kept adding on to the frustration, I think, of you know, constantly putting that much money out. You know, I don't know how many millions of dollars we gave out in the city was like a directive to like, hey, we're pumping this many millions of dollars uh in there, you know. Uh I had I had to go to Blue Diamond one time because I was like the construction officer guy and uh sitting this big meeting with this major like accountant, like uh admin guy, major from Blue Diamond, and he's he gives us all 10 grand cash each, and it was for like you know, if you messed up somebody's property, you're supposed to give them a little bit and uh you know payoffs for this and that, and use a little bit to buy stuff for the things, and then we're fixing to leave, and I remember going like and he's like, by the way, you know, it's 10 grand in cash. And I've never seen 10 grand in cash at that point, you know. And then he just get he hands it to you, and you got it in your cargo pocket, and he's like, by the way, that's the Marine Corps money, and you know, anything's not accounted for specifically, you'll be personally liable to pay that back. And I'm like, wait a minute, like, are you telling me if I drive out here today and I get my little fucking leg blown off, you're gonna come after my mom for just 10 grand? He's like, shut up, Lieutenant, it's not like that. I'm like, have you been out of the wire? And he's like, Well, I go out sometimes today. And I just remember the first time I had that money, we go out, we go out with map one, and I'm like, I forget what Sergeant comes up, and then he says that to Crawford Crock comes up to me and he's like, Hey, we we kind of messed up this guy's truck, and we need to like give him some. Can we give him some of that money to like you know, make it? We didn't mean to, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. We and we just we totaled his his his little opal or whatever. I'm like, sure, here's a little form, you gotta get the guy to sign it. And and Crawford's like, uh, okay, and he takes it and he hands it to somebody, and then they came back like 10 minutes later, and they're like, nah, we can't get him to sign it. And I'm like, I'm so sick of it. I'm like, listen, I realize it's stupid, don't care. Just get him to to sign this little shit for a hundred dollar bill, right? And then they come back and they still like can't do it. And now I'm like, what did I say, man? Just just you gotta get him to sign it, it's not that big a deal. And then they they brought the guy around the corner, and the Humvee had run over his whole truck and he his whole car, and he had just barely gotten out and it broken both of his hands at the at the on his wrist, and both of his both hands were just flopping like with a bone exposed. And he's like, You can't sign it. I'm like, all right, get it. Again, you can't sign it. We'll just make his mark. You know, it's like after that, we're like, screw this, like they have no idea what's going on. You know, such pencil, pencil pushing in the face of uh those kind of deals. But um, but that really started to get old, uh, you know, having still having to have that front face to those guys and giving them all this ridiculous money for for projects that didn't that you know you they were ripping it, it'd be like a$300 like paint job on a school and you'd pay$10,000. Yes, yes. Yeah. And yeah, you couldn't negotiate with them. Like the the the directive was like, give them way too much more money than it's worth. And you're like, man.

SPEAKER_00

I was I was there when you guys paid off the guy that put the uh the roof on the hooch and stuff like that. And I was like, what is even happening? Yeah, that was just so stupid. It was just so stupid.

SPEAKER_04

And it starts to get really get in your gra, you know, like hey, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And to my understanding, reading some of the books about the history is we gave out half or less of how much money was being given out before we even got there. Like there were they had been distributing some money to the local sheikhs, and I was like, that we did 50% because we were giving out yeah a ton.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's why they were just kicking it in there. They were just they were just paying off all the she all the sheikhs or whatever and uh watching movies nice. So I don't know. We had a different plan.

SPEAKER_00

We did.

SPEAKER_04

Uh let's see. So that'd be May.

SPEAKER_01

So I have one memory of you specifically from May, and this may jog your memory a little bit. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. And it may not be, I mean, you may not remember too much of it, but maybe you do. Uh, we had done that op where we were going out with the engineers on the dam, and they had got hit by that IED. Uh, I don't remember which platoon you were with. I think you were with Rainmaker, I'm not 100% sure. But we ended up evacuing those engineers, and I don't know what the call was made specifically, but we came back out and we picked you up with your headquarters vehicle, and we all, as map two, went up to the cemetery in an overwatch position on uh Route Michigan, just a little bit on the west side of the arches there, and that was when the echo company highback got hit by the vehicle-borne IED. And I was standing close to you, maybe next to you, and you were the senior officer at the time, and I and I think we both had the same look on our face because that was the biggest explosion I'd ever seen. And I you had tried to call over the radio and nobody answered at anywhere. Battalion, nowhere, and you you just like you just looked at me and you said, Fuck it, let's go. And so we did. We all went down there and and uh evaked those guys. Anything stand out for you?

SPEAKER_04

Uh well, yeah, of course. I mean, I I can I consider that the worst day I've ever had, never seen for sure.

SPEAKER_01

I'm definitely not trying to get you to relive any painful memories.

SPEAKER_04

Uh uh, well, it needs to easy to hear it. Everybody did a fabulous job, but you know, you see that many of reins mangled like that. Um and it started out bad. I remember that mission again. It was one of those missions we knew we were gonna get tasked with. The the army was I just remember the army being so hot to trot to clear that that whatever that whole berm road was. Yep, way elevated. Remember, remember how high it was over the street? And so you can see for miles out into all those, like the rest of the whole city. It could have been anywhere. Yep. And uh I remember arguing about it extensively that morning, like, what are we doing? Like at this point, it was that wasn't like it was early on either. We knew what the game was. Like these are not mines, these are command detonated, like, and it's like it's not even like asphalt, it's dirt, raised burn, like like and the yeah, engineers with the metal detectors. We're like, Don't you think they're gonna get blown to shit? Like, yeah, well, you know, he directed. Uh and I was like, and they're like, you give you the well, what what what's your plan then, Lieutenant? You know, I'm like, well, let's get a tank with mine plow. How about that? We got all those tanks sitting over there. Seemed like it never did anything, right?

SPEAKER_01

They never did any kind of like I I never saw a mine plow, that's for sure, but I'd certainly saw it when I went back in 2009.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, like that would have worked, maybe? Like, what was so hard? Hartman, like, no, no, those guys are in reserve, you can't have it. I'm like, okay. And then sure enough, uh, you know, those guys, that's exactly what happened. You know, you get the beep and go down there. And I I somebody talked about it before. I uh I I that's haunted me for a long time. I'd like to hear if those guys have made it alive. It wasn't good.

SPEAKER_01

Recently, recently, uh, after doing this podcast, a few episodes, we've gotten we found some confirmation. Both of them survived. Uh, and one of them even did well enough to uh get married, start a family, have a couple of kids afterwards. They they're both still very injured, but uh they've they did survive. Horrible.

Cash In Cargo Pockets And Broken Systems

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and then yeah, whoever it was you you picked me up. I I went out after that because we were secure and you it'd been all those hours and you you got it done. You'd secured that whole thing. And again, the but the army the army brigade or whatever was like dead set on it. Like we were doing it. Yep. Uh and then we had those the ends of it overwatch position and uh at the cemetery or whatever after it was cleared. Uh and again, we obviously we drove by that that vehicle several times, going going and coming. And then I agree with you that that was a mushroom cloud. I've never seen anything close to that big of an explosion. Um and then, but my my hang up was I knew if we left that position, there was a good chance they were gonna scrap the whole thing and make us clear that whole route again. Because they had been so adamant about clear it and then don't leave that post unless somebody comes and releases you, or they were gonna make us do it again, you know, and like the thought of doing that again.

SPEAKER_01

That that now makes sense now. Cause I I I remember talking to you and you had you were on the radio, and I was like, I don't know what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04

Like, if we leave this spot even for like an hour unattended, they were gonna make us clear the whole route again.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Uh and then I I agree with you, that's exactly what I remember that the the battalion, nobody was saying anything, and I remember we flipped it over to Echo Company's Tack, and then uh and then finally that lieutenant got on the hook, and he was a combat replacement. He had just he was a brand new second lieutenant, just got the country for Wobaleski who'd been killed on the 6th, 7th.

SPEAKER_03

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

He'd only been there a week, and it was panic at the disco on the radio, you know. And the size of that explosion, and y'all were sitting there like, we gotta go help him. So like, let's go. Like, was taking the combat outpost, you know. And uh and you saw the scene there when we rolled up with the what that thing did, the nuts and bolts and washers and shit. Uh yeah, but y'all it according area, and y'all just immediately each each vehicle commander, each truck, I remember I I you know, I can see it plain as day in my mind right now. Y'all just pulling guys off and and throwing them in the trucks and take them to combat outposts. Um we covered the other ones up. Um a couple of those guys made it. The job the jolly backed back, I think. A few did.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh three were dead right there. One was uh pronounced when we got to combat outpost. Um I think three got evacued, and the three lived, they got evacued. I I don't know in what state of life they they lived.

SPEAKER_04

And then the other thing, I I remember and to this day, I'm extremely proud of what y'all did after that. The colonel showed up, and of course, we had the dead marines and uh you know whiskey to everybody. We all volunteered to take care of those remains and not allow the the echo company guys to have to do it, you know, because it's it was their buddies, and you know, we largely we didn't know personally a lot of these guys. So I think we put at least put a little bit of that separation to spare them from having to do that. Uh and of course that that was during the whole time where Echo Company was already ragged out pretty good, so they'd had they had all kinds of problems with remember guys like were their boots were getting worn out and they were switching boots uh among each other and like not changing their dog tags. So you'd have you'd have wounded dead marines coming in and they're checking their dog tags, and it's not the right guy. It's just you know, I don't know that I remember that, but that's it's it'd squat boots with his buddies and other platoons and and squads. No. And that was had been a mess with a bunch of a couple of casualties, and they hadn't been, you know, they hadn't there were reports that the uh double dogs didn't have their like IDs in their cargo pockets and stuff. Sure. So I remember I remember we had to open a b of those body bags and go in there and check. I do remember that those things would correct before we loaded them up uh on the Colonel's vehicle and Sergeant Major's vehicle, I believe, to evac. So that uh that's not ideal, obviously.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Um thank God there was no secondary or other blaster. We've been up shit creek, but uh I felt like at that point we were like, what are you gonna do? Like it was such a disaster. Uh uh, and it didn't look like they were gonna be able to get a hold on it in the state that that platoon was in. Sassard Coleman's out there. Yep. I think uh Timmy or whatever. The first one of those were interpreters, like it was his first day there, and then he just quit that night because he was like, nah, we're not doing this. Uh spooked him.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I think I think y'all got over the other, the other half of uh second platoon was on the other end of that OP, and I believe they made their way down, or at least a section of them did, to cover to cover the cemetery portion. Well, they might have done that, so that they didn't make us end up you know clearing all that after the rest of it.

SPEAKER_00

But uh I could be wrong, but it might have been us.

SPEAKER_01

No, we were we were split because that's so again, this is why I was talking to you instead of uh Lieutenant Stevens. He was with the other section.

SPEAKER_04

He was with the other side.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, that does make sense.

SPEAKER_04

But yeah, all of it together, you know, the engineer thing fucked up, and then and then uh uh that deal. And obviously, like they obviously they were waiting for the target they wanted, right? Because we drove by some times largely in uh in hardbacks. They were waiting for they were waiting for a for a high back filled with dudes and a softer target to get a bigger bang out of it.

SPEAKER_01

The first time I drove past it, there was two guys next to it. The second time I drove past it, I was like, that doesn't look right. We drove down. the other side of the road. Sledgehammer called it in, called it to us and said, Do you see that? And then they called it in and then that was it didn't it didn't matter. It was still there. Yeah. We they definitely waited for highbacks.

SPEAKER_04

And I do remember I do remember somebody get getting it called into battalion and then being pissed that like Echo didn't either get that word or didn't heed it.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

You know, because we knew kind of where it was in the direction when we were sitting over that uh on top of the thing. And then when the thing went up from there we're like that's it. Why what are we doing?

SPEAKER_01

Why did they just nobody told them to not cruise by that and uh I guess they did not um sorry sorry for dragging you back to shitty days. Any uh any good memories from anything back in the hooch or anything we'll switch gears a little bit.

The Cemetery Overwatch And The VBIED

SPEAKER_04

Oh yeah I mean I had a lot and I and I think that's uh it's been talked about a bunch on here but you got the uh you know you you got the not to get into post stuff but you got you got all this adrenaline addiction and uh and all that uh which is definitely true uh but I think I think what struck with me what I remember missed the most was just the the complete like team atmosphere I felt like uh that that that the company had and you're never gonna get that again I don't think anywhere in life you know with everybody have a singular focus for uh for each other and and for the mission you know so on a on a day-to-day basis too I was just amazed at at that uh at that level you know to that kind of team it's like a you know every day is is uh a goal line stand for the one yard line in the in the Super Bowl with with all your buddies you know and you never get to that you never you never get to that again that's kind of singular focus uh and I and I think that's what really what made all the difference we talk about everybody adapting and overcome and and reorganization and being proficient in weapon systems but and being ferocious and courageous and all that but I think it was really that uh just just that team it's us mindset that uh that that really carried the day and then because of how crucial uh all the weapons platoons when the mission was for the battalion carried the battalion you know I don't I don't think it would have been possible any other way and then a bunch of raids in there of course through the summer and all that's been discussed uh uh lot of a lot of hard days there um the uh I was in Fox before so that was uh when the scout scrummers drowned in the river was a tough couple to stretch and remember how many days we're out there just up and down yep looking for them and uh that kind of anxiety for like you know knowing like we're gonna we're not gonna stop looking because what if they got these guys yeah you know um which is a tragic deal that that whole thing was a joke before you I don't know if you remember that little island that was out there that they were going to get they thought it was weapons cash or whatever. It couldn't couldn't have been y'all weren't there they they brought they brought fox company all all the leadership everybody was going on the raid like over to Hurricane Point and they gave this big brief to battalion how they're doing and they were being all serious like it was like this big like like it was Iwo Jima or something you know like we're gonna we're doing this big amphibious invasion of this island and like you know they hadn't done much of the time so we kind of were making messing with them thinking like you're okay you're making too big a deal of this just go right across the that little island was like tiny and search it uh so I'd actually made up a fake like weapon uh fox company amphibious like warfare accommodation medal like what you get if you if you like land on the beach at Peleliu or something and I was gonna give it to some lieutenants over there that day uh had it in the truck and then of course that happened like all right it's not it's not funny anymore we all like dark humor maybe not that dark that's that's good so uh but yeah that and then and and then the dark the gallows humor is is what uh is what worked out in that deal isn't it absolutely in the CP had this running like you know what would you rather kind of thing you know you want to you want to leave your left left leg below the knee or you know right arm you had to make a choice balls were out you know you couldn't do balls at all because like clearly you know it just kept getting progressively more and more you know like uh in your nose or like you know big two both big toes and you know so I I I I get to be deep into that I think that gallows humor really helps that's kind of one of the ways that I was dealing with the absolutely thing and I think that was pretty uh rampant across the across men like uh we were in those situations.

SPEAKER_00

Yep actually on that topic of gallows humor my biggest memory of you uh actually is in that larger realm. We were you were out on one of the raids and uh we had we had gotten a guy and I can't remember the circumstances for it but he was between the house and the wall and this he was a big boy and uh it was you mean someone else and you're like you know get him you know I need to see it's we need to take a picture of I had a camera and you're like we need to get a picture of him and we need to record it and and uh like oh I remember who it was it was a smaller one of the smaller marks anyways like he was too big and you're like go get him and I was like all right I'm trying to wrestle this dude out there and he was like two something it was a big dude and I'm like wrestling him out there and I finally get him pulled out but he's belly down and uh you're like you gotta flip this you got to flip him over and I was like sir I I just give me a second you were kind of like rushing me or getting like really pissed off and I finally got up underneath him and I was trying to hold him up and uh and and he's like well take a picture and I was like sir I'm holding him up if my camera's in my pocket please take it out and I just remember being uh uh a little a little annoyed because I finally threw him down I finally threw him down and uh his uh had made a little bit of a coconut sound and you were uh you were you you were like oh no all right hold on I got the picture I got the picture finally for you but so that was when I was anyway I was covered in blood man that was when I learned uh hydrant peroxide takes blood out of the uniform I was just absolutely covered in this shit so oh well oh well I imagine you were with Captain Wyler a whole lot have you maintained any kind of relationship with him I know he's very important general at this particular time but no no uh I saw him uh talk to him a little bit at the 10 year uh deal that was there but uh I think it's mostly because yeah he was just I I never felt real comfortable I mean I'm comfortable with him but you know he's he's still active duty and of course like he's a general now he'll probably be the commander of the first marine division and the commandant I wouldn't doubt right uh if it goes that way so I don't I don't think he needed uh you know I don't think he needed the you know a Duke to have a couple beers and start calling him up in the middle of the workday and trying to shoot the shit about uh stuff uh but no colonel Colonel Harrell for sure Colonel Harrell and then some of the other lieutenants Dobbs uh I hadn't talked to JD in a while either I hope he's alright I did I did for the first 10 couple years or so but I lost touch with him in the last about 10.

SPEAKER_04

Uh we talk on the phone about every little while I talked to him maybe I don't know eight nine months ago I try to call him every couple of years make sure he's still doing okay seems to be doing alright nice yeah I would assume so um uh but no yeah I haven't I haven't I I think I think Colonel Wyatt or Captain War whatever he is he he was in a big he's a little different situation whenever yeah he's uh he's big but I would like to hear I would like to hear some some some just like just like I'd like to hear from everybody from all all these facets and different points of views I would like to hear some more information.

Evac Under Fire And Caring For The Fallen

SPEAKER_01

I I will try to I'll try to bribe him in any way I can but you know he's he's he's very important and I don't know what the law is around getting a general on a on an open podcast would be but you know we'll we'll figure it out somehow yeah yeah well there's plenty of other voices to hear too but that's right yeah yeah through the summer yeah I don't have too much more on those uh that that hadn't already been shared for like a lot of that summer stuff and there was some funny stuff you know the the the that mosquerade with uh whatever that Richard Bruz name that shot himself in the foot and all that I I think his name was Mike but I'm not a hundred percent yeah from from Dearborn at Detroit or whatever.

SPEAKER_04

Uh-huh yep yep exactly and I do remember that being correct whoever said it like he he was just he had gotten like some ungodly amount of money hundred thousand dollars or something for it he didn't want to he didn't he didn't want to do it but that that whole thing was a fiasco but I do remember the same thing you get so you get so annoyed and so so frustrated that you knew that that's what they were doing. That's where they were storing the stuff that's where they were going back to themselves up and all that. So like and that's where they were firing from when the push came to shove and it was just like oh we're supposed to be the better people and like respect your come on. Yeah you just can't allow these havens right and expect expected to not uh you know so we started to try to get creative on on ways to cut through that bullshit uh and between I remember a lot of times the government center and all that I mean I was in a lot of those meetings with the chief of police and uh you know the colonel and the and uh the opso and all that and it's all just I I just got really sick of the the you know the two-faced lying nature of their whole culture and the way that they presented things you know that kind of rubbed me the wrong way so just uh day in day out and you're like you knew these guys were working for the other side or half crooked or whatever and of course almost always panned out to be true that they would get we'd end up killing or capture them in the in the two weeks after we're supposed to be make this big partnership or whatever we're gonna do with them.

SPEAKER_01

Um so all that all that stuff through the summer um yeah I do remember a whole lot more of that going on through the summer where we were like for example there was that political party that we were supposed to be sort of propping up that was gonna help the elections they were like I I don't know the party for a better Iraq or whatever whatever the hell they were called and uh and then we propped up the chief of police because the other chief of police was corrupt and he went to jail. So we got a new one we built a new police station they blew it up and it turned out the new chief of police was in on blowing up the police station like there was a whole bunch of different things that that just kept going on like that and uh never really stopped yeah and let me talk about information too I I supremely frustrated all these guys that we'd capture on raids or other operations and then it became pretty clear moving through uh late spring definitely the summer right that they didn't really the army or whoever was in charge of that didn't really have any kind of conclusive plan on the back end to like process and identify and interrogate all these detainees and like ascertain if they're bad guys or good guys or whatever.

SPEAKER_04

And we just like catch and release right we go do them and then they would let them out three or four days later. And we were out we were never withholding any information. I don't ever remember them ever coming back and being like you know a week later like hey by the way those guys y'all picked up last Tuesday were so and so and so and so bad guys and we got them here. Like it never happened you didn't even get any information. You try to like go ask them like hey we're pulling there and just fucking ask these guys like where they going after this and like I think they just stalled you know that that part of that was like I think there was a time with like Abu Ghab or all those scandals and stuff. Yes yes yeah it complicated that whole the nature of that whole thing and then what they turned over to uh you know to their back to the Iraqi government or whatever getting away from Paul Bermer and all that so that was all rolled in the same thing and I think they were making a lot of these deals that was at these much higher levels than we knew anything about so but they ended up being the the on the ground to us it was like we just pick them up or they let them they don't even check them then they tell them some bullshit story and give them a bullshit name and then cut them loose and they're back in the they're back in their same little hooch.

SPEAKER_00

I remember a lot of those later on raids being nothing but somebody basically pulling a prank on their neighbor. Right.

Summer Raids, Gallows Humor, And Coping

SPEAKER_04

You know they're giving up giving up a name just because they didn't like them or you know it's like swatting somebody now you know like on game you know yeah and what I heard like yeah I hear Colonel Harold knows a lot about it he was a battalion commander in like uh 2-6 or something I don't want to get it wrong but later did another point afghanistan I get I think that that caught on across the whole Iraq and Afghanistan that just that's kind of their MOP you know and he'll he'll tell a lot of stories about they were doing the same thing at all kinds of levels later you know and you end up disusing it to call it against their rivals and they're calling him drone strikes and destroying whole things and it turns out it's just because you know that's just his that's his business rival and then they've been playing that game with whoever's occupying in there with big guns for I mean that's the that's the old I was gonna say that's the old Taliban story from the 80s. They used to do that all yeah right how how do you take over your neighbor's fields well you get him killed by the occupying military that's right so I think they learned that and started doing yeah basically swatting um that's crazy but uh I I don't remember it being I I remember at that point like you didn't really care like you just give us targets and we'll go get them maybe maybe it'll help us is uh kind of what I was thinking because like how could they tell on what what was what and like if it happened to be if it we never got any information about hardcore targets except for the Farharmed brothers or chasten czar weekie or whatever his name was Zarkawi Zarkawi for days on end you know yeah uh the rest of them was always pretty vague and it usually be you know it was always you well know like oh take all military males blah blah blah yeah so like at the end like what did it matter if it was just a rival or not like give us a target and we'll go hit it. Right. Maybe we'll get lucky and we'll actually try to resist this time and we take it up and they they never did usually uh but the but the catch and release without any kind of little plan uh yeah started to get pretty grading I think for sure um we moved into a little bit of the summer I was gonna ask you about what you remember of the left seat right seat at the end of when we were handing off uh yeah what was that the 12th bad I think that was the scared as I've ever been for sure being out with that was for sure you know because it didn't have any faith in them whatsoever you know no uh and I just remember feeling like naked out here like oh god we just got a handful of us and it's like these guys that know nothing and uh you know a lot of the same stories like guys wouldn't shoot you know I remember the same thing just banging on some kid in the turret like you gotta shoot man you know RPG spinner but uh yeah that it was it the 12th with the with the pranks and beans and the tanks and all that the 12th tank yeah the 12th is the tank that backed over the two Humvees I remember being I I remember whiskey too you and JD and then being out there left seat right seating with the with that protection on that convoy and I remember being IED maybe as a RPG but wasn't nothing big yeah and that and the armor lieutenant panicking and just monster trucked over uh those vehicles and I I was in the COC I knew y'all were out and uh the 25 lieutenant again they started it was like screaming bloody murder like panicking the disco on the radio and I remember I think JD just had to take the radio from him and he got on the hook and finally gave us a coherent story like hey this guy just just backed this tank up and like all the Marines got out but it crushed it and there's Frank's and beans all over the fucking street and uh like all right and that's when the the captain took off with another platoon.

SPEAKER_00

Yes um uh and then one point Dobbs went out with another platoon I think and those guys I was the last one to go and then everything was going off all over the city yep I guess at the at that point but it was it was stuck there at the government center right they were pulling us all in is what I mean like and that's what happened to me on the day before on the 11th when my truck got hit with the RPG is that they kept sending every last swing and dick to wherever the the thing was and they would oversaturate the area and then we couldn't move around.

SPEAKER_04

Yep and so then they did it the next day the the the the next day on the 12th like we were the whoever I was with we were doing something else and then we got called over and I remember getting there and the fight and the and the fight was already going anyway that was they just kept sending us and then like there's only what it whatever it was like uh you know before or five with the whole platoon yep maybe a platoon commander a couple of one one per truck yeah yeah yeah and uh I was the last one and everybody was in the city and then I think Dobbs mentioned it that that two five company commander captain he was in the COC and as we're walking in I'm like sir your whole company is deployed in a fight in the city I'm leaving right now with your last Humvee are you coming and he he was sitting there with his with his helmet just so tight like pulled down and like gripping his M16 and he just looked at me and he's like shook his head I'm like you're you're not fucking coming and he didn't and I think Dobb mentioned it he just uh went over basically resigned so I got a truck and we get out there yeah and it was a ton of us JD Dobbs the colonel not the colonel but the XO was out there at the at the government center all bunched up yep and then I remember being a guy it was a guy and he he didn't have an M16 at all and he had this big old like Japanese tourist camera like the big giant lens and we're like who the fuck is this guy gonna get us all killed with this camera and then uh major wali the XO was like calm down that's that's the 25 XO major so like all right fine you're still an idiot for like um yeah Garcia and all and then they were up in that and the and that's when he started taking the mortars yeah that's when me and JD had to write a letter to to thank Mr. Hesko for saving our lives was those had those Hesco barriers we like bam dug down behind it and that was like the mortars hit right on the other side. Yeah geez thank you Mr. Hesco for inventing that whoever you are if you're a real guy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah uh yeah the uh so the course there wounded pretty bad I was gonna say the the lieutenant from our our the platoon we were with he took an RPG fin to the leg and he was combat ineffective at that point because it had lacerated the the ligaments of his knee and he couldn't even yeah like right in the front like like with telintendon or whatever it's like he was he was talking about it nonstop yep as that I remember he was like he was running his mouth talking like I RPG went right there.

SPEAKER_04

Yep uh and I like it's it spilled like like I say whatever it was sprang to beans and like and uh the XO was so con like had to get the gravy train to combat outpost and they're like why why is this so important we could just maybe not and then we just kept sending platoons I remember Dobb and his guys went and they got maybe two blocks down Michigan and all hell broke loose you know getting shot at from where it was like great somehow they made it they shot their way back to combat outpost um when the borders with uh fucked up his leg good yeah yeah yeah a little bit Diaz broke his leg and he got he got vaced out yeah I remember him up in that tower right in the middle of the in the middle of the government center. I was trying to get up there when he got hit blew me off that ladder I got up there right after that and then uh of course it whatever it the Humvee I was in it was all it blew out all four tires. Yep I think we were riding telling Charlie on that and then getting out of there when they're finally like after we get mortared of course the like the XL was like okay I guess we can leave now we're like okay yes we can leave now good plan but I remember snaking our way down south and out and just

SPEAKER_00

RPGs pin and uh I remember I remember Nylon and I were some of the last ones. So you must have been we must have the three of us must have been a part of that last like because I because my memory was going so slow with the with the tires. Well just well that and weaving around two four well two four was some of the last ones there. We were holding while everybody well they 2-5 got out and then we were some of the last ones out the only ones doing anything.

SPEAKER_04

Like why was Diaz on that post? Yep. It should have been them. And then whoever like Sergeant Cook was on the roof, I think, at the one it was it was me because we're the only ones that will do it. Are you up there? Like it was it was me that was up.

SPEAKER_00

I was up, I was basically up there by myself. Oh, there was a squad of them up there, but they weren't shooting. And I was just I was plank, I was just straight up planking people. There's a open area on the back side, and it was just I mean, it was a it was a target rich environment, and like they wouldn't engage. Well, they they had like this funny belief of what the ROE was at the time, where it was like they had to, they they they were like, Well, they have to be wearing black and actually shooting, and it's like they're carrying ammo cans, they're the enemy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the the guys that the guys that covered our Xville from that was not even Marines, it was the triple canopy contractors that allowed us to even pull out of the government center. I don't know if you remember that, but they pulled their sub out and started firing down the road just so we could get out.

SPEAKER_04

Get out. So that was a long episode back.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it was. We took a very long rain round. Yep.

Mosques, Politics, And Two‑Faced Partners

SPEAKER_04

Uh but at least that was enough. They're like, all right, nobody's going out again. Like, we're not sending any more of our guys out. No, no, no more of this. Because before that, I think the day before that, I was on uh left seat, right C, or maybe I don't know if it's 11th or one of the right C from Combat Outpost, and check and see does everybody have all your drivers have MVGs, blah blah blah, all this. And it was some lieutenant, uh headquarters company lieutenant from the 2-5, and and the whole the whole movement was just such a shit show in the dark on the way back, and it turned out those guys didn't have like half of them didn't have MVGs, the drivers. Uh and I remember just getting back and getting out and seeing that and being so pissed and laying into this guy. Uh, and then that's when we figured out they lost the whole back of the the other section of the whole platoon with Diaz and all them. They took a different turn, like at the tits or something, and they were still out in the city. And but these guys were acting like it was some kind of training operation, like everything's gonna be alright, like we just can do these and get our get our feet under us, and we're like, no, man, like we're all gonna die today if you don't get your shit together. Uh uh, but yeah, that's the worst feeling just being out. I I can't imagine how how much how how bad does that feel being in a fighting unit out like in the army or something else where you don't really trust these guys. Yeah, you know, I I can't I can't imagine doing a whole appointment with guys that you don't you don't have full confidence in that they got your back and they're like they're gonna do they're gonna they're gonna act aggressively and do what you can to help everybody, you know. And uh I just remember that feeling. Like this is so different. Like, didn't have this feeling at all whenever we were out with with our crew, you know, like people knew their jobs, you knew who you could count on them. And it was just totally the opposite with these guys, and you didn't know it was like you know, like I think I've heard these rumors that they told they told them instructed them basically not to listen to anything we said. Yep, yeah, that's what they told us. I think that's probably true. I mean, we're we're we're the magnificent bastards. I mean, like I'm sure it was yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I was specifically told by one of the corporals that we were they were told not to listen to us too closely because we were just a bunch of cowboys. Yep, and that's the words that they use cowboys.

SPEAKER_01

So cowboys. I was a little bit more rude about uh an interaction. I just and same thing. One of their sergeants told me the same thing. It you know, you guys are a bunch of cowboys, that's what we're told. We're not supposed to listen to you, we're not gonna do things the way you do it.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, all right. Roger that. Yeah, but yeah, but that's what I thought. So I thought actually being in the shit on that day would wake them up, you know. Like, okay, we're gonna get it's like it seems pretty obvious what's going on now, but it just didn't didn't dawn on them at all, which is well it didn't wake them up the day.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, uh again, the the day be literally the day before on the 11th, they we they got hit hard because my truck got completely I was the only I was the only one that walked away from it. I mean they were the some of them got the the rest everybody else got evaped out. Um, and I think two of them died. And it didn't change like they still did the same thing the final like less than 24 hours later.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, baffling. Baffling. But uh I remember I do remember being a little relieved that at least like say that's what that was what took it over the edge, and even the tag was like, all right, you don't have to send any more of your guys out. All right, we're done, we're done uh with this left series.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I remember that seven ton coming pretty quickly after we got back to Hurricane Point, and they're like, grab your shed, let's go. Right. And showing up at Junction City. Right.

SPEAKER_04

We got I remember getting, I don't know what wave you were. I remember getting rocketed pretty good on the tarmac out at Al-Assad for the fly to Al-Assad.

unknown

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04

And that was such a big base. I remember getting on that, where like they had swim pools and shit. Like, oh, this is they got a lot of lands, like we should be good, you know, after being in such tight quarters in Hurricane Point. Yep. And we're all just the whole damn company laid out on the tarmac, and here comes these giant rockets. Like, oh, they're gonna get us right here on the tail end of this. And then the guy doing the I remember the pilot doing those evasive maneuvers when he took off. I've never been in a plane like that where you know, jerking it. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

So uh but well, putting a little bit of a bow on this, what'd you do when you got home? Did you take leave and go home, or did you uh stay and hang out? It sounds like you got out in May, so you had a fairly short time after we got back.

SPEAKER_04

Fairly short. Yeah, I got out in May. Uh yeah, I took I took I took the 30 days and uh uh took my girlfriend at the time to Italy for like two weeks. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking. That was a bad idea. Like so many people in Rome. I was like, well, like I guess you know, because you know, it's been discussed, but they uh they they did get it's on honest on almost unimaginable how dirty they did us on on the tail end of that. Getting out, I mean, with nothing. Right, you know, no decompression time, like why didn't we stop in Kuwait or somewhere else and like just give us a bunch of pallets of beer and give us like two weeks to like chill out and like decompress? Yep, they just blew us, drop you know, two days later, uh drop us back on the in in the tarmac, and we're out there drinking tequila shots in the parking lot at Camp Pendleton, and then everything else that happened. A lot of tragedies that happened in the first the next couple of days for for people.

SPEAKER_00

I didn't sober up for like four months. I I I think I I think I was I was I was nursing I was nursing something for like four months straight. And honestly, it's 18 months is when I talked to my family. That's the we don't talk about uh 2005 very much.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. At least at least that year. There's a lot a lot worse, a lot more than that after that. Uh but uh it's been in it's been uh I don't know. I again I I I've hearing all you it's it's it's good in a lot of ways, obviously, to hear the hear these echoes uh from all these other Marines in the same situations for for them for five years later, ten years later. Uh I think a lot of that, I think a lot of those things repeated for a lot of us. You know, um and thank God a lot of it, a lot of that is more amazing that uh that most of us made it through that than even the fighting, perhaps. You know. Agreed. I I know that's true for myself, you know. Um yeah, I and it's still not over, you know, it's still good still could get me.

SPEAKER_01

I I was gonna say, I don't know that it ever ends. I do think that is uh we talked to Mosell and he had his episode and he's had a whole bunch of things, but he used a very specific phrase where it, you know, it's uh it's a thought in his head that he makes pay rent. So like anytime it bothers him, he knows that he has to push it away. Like I I appreciated that analogy a lot, and I've I've said that back to a few different people. It doesn't really go away, right? It does get it changes over time. I I also find it very telling that we have, like you said, there's a chance that General Weiler will be the Commandant of the Marine Corps someday. He's really going, I mean, he's doing really well. He's climbing the ranks quite well. We've produced a lot of sergeant majors. Like I we've had a lot of success, successful dudes that have done a lot of really good stuff. And so it's uh it's neat to see, even with all the struggles that people have had, that a lot of dudes have been able to to climb their way out and do really well.

SPEAKER_04

And I think that's a testament to the character a lot of those guys like you speak, you talk about all those all the sergeant majors and and that uh have come out of that. That's a testament to the truth of their character at the time. And you know, that we were right about them.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

But to to feel that way, that admiration about it, and they and and and to be able to continue to do that. Uh it's amazing for the the whole time. I I can't imagine uh I can't imagine having to having to stay in the battalion and having to pump back to Oki. I don't think it would have survived that.

SPEAKER_01

Nope. Uh no, I I'm amazed that they did. I I'm amazed as many of them did as well as they did. Because uh we thought that would have been yeah, that year that we spent in Okinawa was almost the end of my liver in the first place. It would have definitely been uh had I had I stuck exactly.

Catch‑And‑Release Detainees And Bad Intel

SPEAKER_04

So, but uh yeah, all the success in all kinds of fields. Uh it's amazing. You know, it's it's good to hear those stories. I'd like I'd like to reconnect with some of those other guys. I know I talked to Granger, he was my gunner when I took the headquarters vehicle out. I talked to him at the 10 year, he's like a doctor, I believe, somewhere, I think in Arizona somewhere.

SPEAKER_01

So he was a he was a surgeon. Uh he actually left the surgical field and was a law enforcement officer last I talked to him. He he decided medicine wasn't for him and became a law enforcement officer in Southern Arizona. Yeah, but yeah, he's doing very well.

SPEAKER_04

Great, smart kid. Uh tons of other ones. But uh so impressed. So impressed.

SPEAKER_01

Uh well you've got some you've used a lot of great great words. I I was I I'm just gonna I was gonna try to put a cap on it, I guess. Uh you you've used a lot of words like pride and courage. Uh and that feeling of teamwork. I know you were an athlete, right? And so team is one of those things, like you get a little taste of it as an athlete, and then you get it in a deep sense when you get over there in in combat in a way that you're like I said, you'll never ever see again. Absolutely. It sounds like this stuff still means at least a considerable chunk to you. And I know you guys, as our leadership, meant a lot to us, and it's gonna mean a lot for everybody to hear what you have to say. Uh when you look back 20 years later, what do you what do you tell people about all this? How do you make sense of it?

SPEAKER_04

Uh well, without getting into some kind of big existential question about you can if you want, but yeah, you don't have to. Uh I I think it I did an amazing job of it, to be honest with you. I think in large part we're just kids doing the dirty work for the mistakes of old men.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Uh you know, I I I think that the the Marine Corps is amazing and and the Marines are amazing in it that you they're called to do it. I think we all thought, you know, after 9-11 and whatever you felt when you were growing up, or why people joined the Marine Corps joined in infantry in the battalion. We all had a feeling, and I don't know if we'd necessarily thought that we were just gonna get stuck doing this kind of mission, um, or in in this kind of scenario. Um, and yeah, I struggled with that obviously a lot of like, you know, nobody wants to feel like anything was in vain or you know, mistaken. Uh and I I think both things can be true, you know. Uh that's the way it goes. Now, I I make I was pleased, or if that's the right word, at least if saw these things to hear these stories and things to come out with the book and stuff, to see actually the how to make sure that everybody, especially everybody in weapons or two, four for sure, but weapons for sure knows understands now that we have this 20 years of vision on it, exactly what what it was he actually accomplished and what the stakes actually were, especially relative to all these other battalions, all these other AOs throughout the whole war on terror, you know. Uh so you probably get that. You run into people, you run into people in the street, somebody wearing a big veteran's hat and crap with stuff all over it. And and I don't know how many times you like, oh, I'm just gonna go ahead and talk talk to this guy and see, and then like two sentence into the conversation, you realize that this guy is just a poser and he has no idea and what whatever it is. And then so just kind of quit talking to people, quit asking about it. Cause I don't think they're gonna understand. Even even uh, even another uh 5th Marines Battalion in a different different time or different AO, completely different. Um so I think it really has hammered home just the fact how unique this particular group of men was in this particular time. Uh it's exceptional across the board in military operations, especially for our generation. And it's that that's not an easy thing to say. It seems it seems like you're bragging about stuff, but I think the the the stories and the evidence is clear at this point. If we want to argue who had the toughest fight, I think we I we gotta think we think we I think we got a pretty good uh argument for that, um, for whatever that's worth. Uh, but I think it's important that the the people know uh themselves, the Marines know exactly how special that stuff was and is. So and I've always been impressed. I don't know how many y'all talked to a lot more people than I have, but uh I can't think of one person that whether they've done just this one deployment or two or six or ten, everybody has a special place in their heart for for two four Ramadi in uh in O4. You know, some of these guys have been on nine deployments and seen all kinds of shit, and every single one of them to a man basically has a special reverence for the the Marines that were with with us and what uh uh what what we had to go through and and how we withstood it, and then it's obvious, you know, the some people the book guy asked me, like, where you mean where you how'd you feel a couple years later, you know, when the news came out that you know Ramadi had fallen again and blah blah blah. I was like, well, I think I think it's pretty evidence, like like it's mentioned before here, like right after that, there was never more, there was never less than like what four or five battalions in charge of the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, six months after he left.

SPEAKER_04

Come on, man. So I think that's that speaks for itself in general, like and the fact that they never no one ever considered like hey, two, four can't do it, and like maybe it should have, but uh we held it up. I think that's something to be proud of. Uh I think something that's exceptional to the to the rule. Uh and people should know that.

SPEAKER_01

That's great. That's actually a great way to wrap it up, I think. Thank you. Thank you for all the stories, and and I have a feeling that uh this will probably be one of the the most popular recordings that we put out because I don't know that anybody got to talk to you much in 2004. We were also damn busy, and I as the executive officer, I imagine you did more than most people know behind the scenes. So thank you for that too. Uh thanks for keeping us together realistically and keeping shit working. Uh a thousand percent. And I wouldn't even be able to pay back that debt if I knew how.

SPEAKER_00

So we've said it uh multiple times, but be able to say it directly to you, I I knew then, and as time has gone on, the only reason why we were able to get through that deployment was because of the leadership that we had, especially in weapons company. We had amazing leaders that believed in us and allowed us to do what was necessary and had nothing but faithfulness in our in our skills and ability. And so thank you for that.

Left‑Seat Right‑Seat: Fear And Failure

SPEAKER_04

I appreciate that. But uh it was it was you that's what you're talking about. The leadership. No, really, it couldn't have been done, couldn't have been done. Uh NTOs on that it's just unbelievable task. So thanks for doing this. It's a good thing. I'm interested in here. Some more perspective.

SPEAKER_00

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