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Constant Combat
This veteran-led podcast highlights the experiences of Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, starting with their harrowing 2004 deployment to Ramadi; a 9 month combat tour which resulted in the highest casualties in a single deployment - a deployment that most Americans have never heard about. Through candid conversations surrounding these events, the series also explores earlier experiences that shaped the Marines, emphasizing their grit, humor, and humanity while aiming to honor their stories authentically.
Constant Combat
The Blood Stripes - Lewis Layton (part 2 of 2)
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We pick up part 2 with Lew Layton and trace how Ramadi shifts from early IED shortcomings to rapid escalation, brutal missions, and losses that still echo decades later. We also talk about the leadership that held things together, the dark humor that kept morale alive, and what service means after a 20+ year career as a Marine leader.
• Early IED awareness, door debates, and why the threat felt unreal at first
• The speed of escalation
• April 10 bug hunt operations and how battalion control works in practice
• Moving bodies for accountability and intel, and why it still feels surreal
• Admiration for standout leaders
• Late April and May casualties, including the impact of Savage’s death
• Grief, professionalism, and returning to mission as a coping method
• Why it took twenty years to tell these stories out loud
• Funny hooch moments, rocket immunity, and the role of humor
• Leadership failures elsewhere and the belief that Marines deserve good leaders
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If you are a member of Weapons Company or someone with a story about Weapons Company 2/4 in 2004, please come tell some stories with us - 20 mins or 20 hours! Help paint the canvas of an archival story for others to know what it was like. Contact us @ RamadiPodcast@gmail.com, or via the podcast website above.
All music used with permission by soundbay: https://www.youtube.com/@soundbay_RFM
Early IED Warnings And Complacency
SPEAKER_03This is part two of our interview with Lou Leighton of Rainmaker Platoon.
SPEAKER_01But you know, and it's crazy. And I'm not you, you know, something I pick in your guys' brain. Like, did anybody hit IEDs before we did?
SPEAKER_04Yes. Uh so there's a few.
SPEAKER_02You mean in in country? Like our unit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, just in in total, right? Like, because we were in there with half doors. We weren't worried about IEDs.
SPEAKER_04Right. You know. So it's interesting you say that. I have two perspectives for that. Number one, I'll give you just the historical portion. Uh, even the guys that were from 3-5 that had come over uh sort of as our early, not even combat replacements, but people like Lechard, McCabe, like those guys who were who had seen the invasion action, they said as the invasion sort of dwindled down and they were doing some routine patrols, they were seeing rudimentary IEDs, and a lot of them were in dead animals or in you know simple stuff, soda cans, like little stuff, which was kind of where our early IED training focused on when we got it. I I don't know if you were part of that brief that was at uh San Mateo, but uh we all sat in like a big room and they showed us a slide deck of seven slides, and it was like a Pepsi can stuff with nails and a little bit of coffee, like total bullshit. But it I mean, maybe that was what they were seeing at the time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Now, fast forward to our time frame, uh just before us getting there, they were definitely seeing a lot of IED activity uh just north of RAO, out towards uh Al Qut and I don't remember the other names of the places. And then way out uh east in Baghdad, Baghdad had plenty of IED activity. Now I wasn't connected in any more than you were to any other unit, but even I was getting some of that information via briefs and stuff like that, which was kind of where the the argument against removing the doors from the Humvees came from. In that people are like, well, they're not bulletproof, you know, like it doesn't matter. What's that gonna help you? And and I was like, Well, look, there's other things that can hurt you. People throwing rocks, glass blowing up off of an IED. I mean, like, there's a million different things that are gonna hurt you. Like, just getting shot is not the only thing. But they're like, Oh, it makes us a more, you know, more aggressive looking force facing outward. Nobody'll think we're a target. And I was like, I don't know if that's true. But but it as early as November, there were plenty of reports across the Marine Corps of increased IED activity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, and that makes sense. I just you know, from my experience, I just don't remember. I mean, we weren't worried about it, at least at first. I mean, we got the training, I remember that. And so looking back, I'm like, I don't know why I wasn't worried about it when we got this training.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I think maybe to the point, maybe, like you said, maybe we were seeing all these small things, soda cans and everything else. And maybe I had a false sense of security being in the vehicle from that. But um, but yeah, no, I just remember I was just like, you know, I'm like, I don't, you know, when I talk to people, I'm like, I don't know if we were the first ones to hit IEDs, but you know, in the very beginning, we definitely were because like I just don't remember.
SPEAKER_04Well, and we saw such a heavy escalation, right? It started out with small rudimentary stuff that, like you guys said, buried too deep, buried backwards, all that stuff. Towards the end of the deployment, rolling V bids that were being pushed by other vehicles. Uh, su we had a couple suicide bombers, like I mean, it it went zero to a hundred very fast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, no, and you were talking about it before. I think we had maybe a week or two. I can't even remember how long before things started kicking up. It wasn't long, you know, before it was, you know. I remember just enforcing the curfew, right? That was our first thing. Yeah, like we're chasing
How The IED Threat Escalates Fast
SPEAKER_01bakers who are going to work at you know three in the morning to make bread. Like, what are you doing? Like, uh going to work, you know, it's just like, you know, so and then you know, obviously it escalating from there, but yeah, it was crazy.
SPEAKER_04Well, we kind of touched on April. Do you happen and you talked a little about April 6th and 7th for sure? Uh, do you remember anything of April 10th? And the only reason why I bring that up is because that was the first, I think, massive battalion mission, essentially. That was so sixth, seventh big firefights, mostly independent units that were all separated across the city. April 8th ended up being mostly bullshit missions, something called Operation County Fair, where we found some sort of field hospitals and pre-stage caches. Uh, the ninth was the same, more the same. Little nothings, not much. Uh, but 10th was the first big bug hunt. That was when we went to the Sophia district and surrounded it, and everybody who was possible was out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I remember um the biggest things I remember from that were um I remember Major Harrell, I think that was our battalion XO's or OPSO's name.
SPEAKER_04That was the OPSO, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yep. So he came over, and I was close to Captain Wilder at the time, but I remember him coming up on the hook and basically giving, you know, a frago, giving a frag order to every company, giving them their left and right lateral limits, and that we were going to clear in zone basically um and do those bug hunts. And from the bug hunts, you know, obviously we had more after that, but I just remember being long, yeah, long days um pushing through. One of them I got a flat tire on. I don't know if it was that one, and we just drove on the run flat all day. Yeah, I can, you know, it's like me and vehicles uh uh during that time and afterwards. Uh I had bad experiences with like, you know, um, but yeah, no, and I I remember those are that's one of the the big things I remember. Um I remember taking some guys, I think it might have been on the 10th. I remember bringing some guys that that we that had been killed. I can't remember if it was us or someone else, but we put them on the hood of our vehicle and took them to the police station. Or no, in the back of a high back, took them to the police station. And they were I just remember them being like, What do you want to? I'm like, I don't know what you're gonna do with them, but we're not taking them. So, you know, kind of just leaving them there um with them. But though those are a few things I remember that might have been the time that we forgot that we didn't have our camel backs and we got separated and had to go for a while. Um, you know, so like I said, you know, unfortunately for me, the the dates and times, you know, not great with.
SPEAKER_04No, you're I mean, that you're probably spot on as far as that goes. It was a super long operation, all day, sun up to sundown type thing. Uh the body stacking thing, it that's a very vivid memory for me, only because I don't I don't know how many I I bet you can't estimate either how many people your section or platoon shot, but dozens, maybe even in the hundreds. And we were at one point when you could find bodies, because often the local people would drag them off, we were stacking them on the hoods. We were putting them, I mean, a couple times we put them on the roof of the Humvee, put them on, we put them in. I mean, I didn't have a high back, so what we would put them wherever they would stick, and you would take them to IP checkpoints, you would take them to the ICDC checkpoints or the hospital or the police station. We stopped doing that after April, but that was a that was a big thing in April because we I don't remember why we thought we needed to do that. Like it was a more humane thing to deliver them to I don't I don't know. I don't know what the reason I still don't know what the reasoning was behind that, but I remember doing that numerous times and seeing huge piles of bodies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I remember the same. It was just yeah, very unusual. I I thought the same thing, right? And then I was like, you know, stacking them on your hood if you didn't have a high back with you. Yeah, you know, it's like you're trying to see over these things. Um kind of sounds insensitive, right?
SPEAKER_04Very very much so, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you know, it's like, well, I I guess we could have left them in the field um and let you know everybody else deal with them. But yeah, no, it was just it was just very interesting, very weird. Um yeah,
April 10 Bug Hunt In Ramadi
SPEAKER_01it was just like so so interesting.
SPEAKER_02I have a half memory of it's doing partially to deal with um uh what's the word I'm looking for? Um because we were looking for people specifically and we were and that that we were supposed to, and I can't remember exactly what the phrasing was, but it was that we weren't it was Intel. It was for Intel, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean I do remember taking a lot of pictures of a lot of dead bodies. So that that that does check out.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, that I believe it was something to do with that, that it was like it was it was for like an accountability piece that we were sort of like our tally matched their tally type thing. That way, that way if if the body was removed, that way somebody else didn't count it. Not that we were keeping score of the bodies, just exceptionally clear. Right, right. This wasn't to be very, very crystal clear, it wasn't that we were keeping tally, but it was to make sure that we weren't not uh making sure that that wasn't someone that we were looking for. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, 100%, 100%. Um I'm trying to think about what else from the bug hunts. Like I said, everything kind of meshes together, but I thought it was cool afterwards looking back on Major Harrell popping on the radio and giving a frago to everybody, you know, every company, and kind of just sorting all that out and controlling that chaos. You know, at the end of the day, not super hard for a major in the Marine Corps who's the operations officer, right? But uh very cool. And I was just like, you know, going back after that, I was like, that was so cool, you know, just seeing how he was able to, okay, because everybody was doing all this stuff. Hey, here's your points, here's your zones, go.
SPEAKER_04Do you did you ever get a chance to go over to the palace and go into where he did all the operations and had the maps with all the pins in them and his yes, his methods? Yeah, I I don't know if everybody called him coach. That was what we called him. We called him coach. Okay. Uh, just when we hear him, we're like, oh, coach is on the radio, I'm gonna listen closely because he's gonna pass some real information. Like it was a it was a huge deal. Like, I knew if Major Harrell was on the radio, like this is the real gouge, and we're gonna learn all the things. And I again, I don't know. This is just my sergeant's opinion of the time. I thought he was brilliant. I agree a thousand percent. When he when he passed information and and his plans came out exquisitely detailed and were always well thought out.
SPEAKER_01100% totally agree. I think he was a battalion commander afterwards, if I remember correctly. I remember looking into it, I can't remember where, but uh obviously I wasn't surprised.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, I haven't kept up with him either, but I I hear he moved on to bigger and better things. I know he stayed in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he did. I don't I don't know if he made it uh to the general officer thing. You know, towards the end of my time, you know, Captain Weiler's a general now. I don't know if you guys are tracking that. Yeah, he is, you know, and there, you know, I got to see him uh when he was the Commandant's military secretary. So got to, you know, see him as a colonel and um Colonel Bronze. Um, so you know, a bunch of those guys that we interacted with, seeing him afterwards. It's you know, obviously old Paul Kennedy, you know, two star in it up. I believe he that's uh he might have been three star, I can't remember, you know, and then Sergeant Major Booker, you know, it's like so it's yeah, yeah. And I don't know if you know about you know, but Eric Cook, he's now the senior enlisted leader for Endopaycom. Like that's small brain.
SPEAKER_04We've we've talked about this a few times on this podcast, but I imagine from your view, especially since you went the distance, did you go all the way, Sergeant Major?
SPEAKER_00I did.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so you're one of another. I mean, I like starting to I'm running out of fingers. The number of sergeant majors that came out of just weapons company alone is obscene, right? It's it's a lot of people, and it's interesting to me how many people went the distance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, you know, and I mean uh Hector Fernandez and David Dahl, right? Towards the end of my time, we were like we felt like uh the three musketeers, like the last ones around. Yeah, Dahl's still in, he's a master of guns doing great things.
SPEAKER_04That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, me and Fernandez retired around the same time, I believe, you know, and so he was a sergeant major too. So it was, you know, it's just it's cool, and it's cool seeing how you know, like how that group of people from that time, you know, have done so well, you know, because of, you know, one thing I know now, because I was a sergeant major, you know, Sergeant Major Booker and Colonel Kennedy, we were lucky to have them, they were lucky to have us. Um and the leaders that they had. You know, it takes a it takes a group of amazing individuals to do what we did there. Um, and I don't like, you know, I I think we all have humility in in regards, and we can all say that we made mistakes, but um we did something um out of the ordinary, you know, above average. I don't know what I want to call it, but um, you know, it's like we were all able to coalesce and do things um at a at a heavy price, 100%. You know, I think we had 26 KIAs in the battalion, but um 34. 34, geez. Well, way off. So that's okay. It's been a lot of years. It's been a lot of years, wow. Uh so you know, but you know, just a lot of guys, and um, and we experienced a lot. So very cool.
SPEAKER_02So coming coming into the end of April, that's when Regal and Hurley and Holmes
The Reality Of Moving The Dead
SPEAKER_02all got hurt during that time frame.
SPEAKER_01I think I was talking about Holmes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that would have been my guess just based on your story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So Holmes. Yeah, he's from the Midwest, right? Glasses? Am I am I am I Holmes?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh he he's now uh he lives in New Mexico. New Mexico, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think he was, but I think he was from the Midwest originally.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, yeah, he's from Milwaukee, actually. Now that I yeah, he's from Milwaukee.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it was Holmes. Yeah, so sorry, Holmes. Love you, brother.
SPEAKER_02I remember his face, like you know, like it was yeah, and then and then that would have been the first part of May is when Savage was killed. So the 12th.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02Um and and at that point things had calmed down kind of just because you know, the first part of April we really mopped the floor with everybody. But what was some of your memories of of uh of all during that that I mean that was a rough that was a rough two weeks for 81s in general, but specifically Rainmaker. Um you guys took a lot of casualties in a very short amount of time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, it's just um, you know, obviously Holmes, you know, the other guy, like they, you know, um, they didn't hit and they don't stand in my mind. Obviously, Holmes does because uh that was such a crazy experience for me. Um you know, and Regalsburger, like it was kind of weird because these guys get injured and they're gone. I don't even think I saw Regal.
SPEAKER_04No, I mean he he was pretty severely wounded. He was in the hospital for months.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. No, I remember. I know I remember him getting hit, and I don't and like I remember I didn't even get to see him hit. Like he he's gone. Like, you know, he got out. Uh awesome that he did. Um, but I remember Savage, obviously. Me and Savage were pretty close. Um, the godfather to two of his kids. Um, and so that was you know the one that really sticks out, and obviously because you know we lost him. Um, and what I remember from that day is that I wasn't even there. So we split up that day. I took two, yeah, I took two, maybe three vehicles to Junction City to get up armored. Oh we were getting the windshields put in. Um yeah, so we were getting the windshields put in. And so I remember we did that, we came back, and we and I if it was a little bit after they got back, but I just remember hearing that Savage got hit and he was flown out, and I was just like, you know, I didn't know what to say or do. And I was just hoping for the best, and I remember when Gunny Cook came up, you know, very upset, sad, and just real quick, he's like, Savage is dead. He didn't make it. And I just remember I think it was me, Felix Garcia, Reagan Hodges sitting there just crying. Like, this sucks. You know, and I was just thinking about Cassie, his wife, his kids, one that he hadn't even seen yet. Right. Um, you know, and it was nuts. And I, you know, I want to be careful with what I say here. So Savage was the most stubborn individual that you will ever meet, and I loved him for it. Um, you know, I basically had to beat that guy into submission sometimes with certain things that he liked to do. Um, because he didn't care. He he was I an animal, a warfighter, I don't know what you want to call him. And I don't just say that because obviously he was killed in action. You know, a lot of people like to go back and say, like, oh, you know, he was the best dude ever, you know, da-da-da-da. Um Savage was awesome, you know. Uh he was a pain to uh to deal with sometimes because he'd just be like, Well, why?
SPEAKER_05Why?
SPEAKER_01You know, and it's just like Savage, my brother, like the guy I went through ITB with, you know, it's like we were super close. Me, him, Dahl, Bowers, right? Like um, all these guys. Um, and we're I'm just like, you know, he was just stubborn, and you know, he reminds me of the typical just wild Tennessee redneck, awesome human being that just is all about, you know, his country and us, his brothers. Um, you know, like I said, I remember him just being stubborn, but uh, you know, I, you know, I loved him very much. And that day was miserable. And I just remember, I think, I think we went back out and had to do stuff the next day. And moving forward, when I would talk to my guys and gals just about what we were preparing for, you know, in regards to combat, I'm like, one second, you could have the worst thing happen to you in your entire life. And then the next moment, you're gonna be going out and handing candy to children, speaking with village elders and doing that. And it's just one of those things where, you know, I know a lot of people have dealt with a lot of things and you know had a have a hard time after Ahmadi, understandably so. Um for me, I haven't had to deal with too much of that. Just because I always, you know, and maybe because I'm a serial killer, I don't think so, but uh you're in good company. Yeah, I just saw it as very professional. And like after Savage was taken from us, you
Major Harrell And Combat Leadership
SPEAKER_01know, I like I felt like it would have been a dishonor for me to go out and do ridiculous things when I gave him so much pain and heartache about doing the right thing when we were there out there um, you know, and doing everything. And I just took it as I just took it as a very it's this is a profession, you know, we get shot at, we shoot back. Um we're not getting shot at, be friendly, be nice, no better friend, no worse enemy, you know, the whole deal. But and I didn't have a problem with that. You know, it's just but I remember that happening, being upset, crying, you know, working through it, and then going out later that day. And I think that was the best thing for us. It's like, hey, we still got a mission here. Um, you know, and I've seen it go the other way after Ramadi, you know, in Afghanistan and other places where, you know, sometimes people just can't handle that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and start doing stupid things. Uh, you know, it's just like, you know, I always took it as that. And I've always, you know, thought that in my mind. Uh, you know, I don't feel bad about what we did over there. We made mistakes, uh, but nothing crazy, you know, at least for me, you know. You know, you guys were talking about it, Shane. You were talking about it before, you know. Maybe some things, maybe some people went, you know, on the on the right side of gray, whatever side, wrong side of gray, whatever you want to call it, right? Like, but you know, and that's one thing I always was very cognizant of, um, because I think a lot of people come back from those experiences of lost people very close to them, gone through seen things that no human being should probably see. Um, and then, you know, and then just be expected to, you know, operate normally. Um, you know, but it's one of those things where I was very serious about that. Um, and if I ever caught, you know, even an inkling of it, you know, I would make sure I squashed it real quick because I think when people experience those things and then they go outside of the gray, um, that's when people have real issues afterwards.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think I think that's very true. And going forward, and you actually probably could speak to this better than me, but my understanding is further studies on how people deal with combat loss, they started to look at different units and how things went and the trajectory of some of the guys afterwards. And they kind of protocolized it where it was you give them five minutes, 15 minutes, whatever to experience loss, discuss it, get some feelings out, feel bad, have a minute, and then go right back on mission. Going back to work actually ended up being the better thing for everybody.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I'm in total agreement, right? Like something bad happens, you know, dealing with that. And there's not a day I that goes by that I don't remember, you know, think about Jeremiah. You know, I I don't think there's been one. Um, I'm always thinking about him. He's always in my prayers, his family. I just saw his daughter, Madison, get married. I was there. You know, it's just like it's one of those things that'll always live with me. But, you know, I think that just understanding and knowing that, yeah, it's okay to be upset. It's okay to deal with your emotions the way you need to. Um, you know, there's not a lot of people that, you know, sometimes people are like, well, you know, if you get too emotional, you're being weak, you're not tough. And I'm like, well, maybe you just haven't been in a situation where you had to really uh call on or be tough, you know, and that's what I would say to a lot of people. Um, you know, so but you know, from from those days, you know, May 12th obviously is something that sticks out um with Jeremiah, um, for sure.
SPEAKER_04I don't want to twist the knife in any way, but I do want to ask, because you're close to his family, how much do his kids know about him?
SPEAKER_01You know quite a bit, but this is something that kind of bothered me, and and this is on me too. I had a hard time talking to Cassie after that. Um, I know Dahl did too, um, from what Cassie told me. Right? It was just very difficult because it's like I kind of feel like you let him down a little bit. Um, you know, I don't beat myself up as much as maybe other people do in regards to that. You know, it's like I did the best I could. Um, you know, and it's unfortunate what happened to Jeremiah, but um there's not a lot of people from 2-4 that have talked to the family.
SPEAKER_04I what we've I I don't want to put words in Blake's mouth, but I imagine he feels the same. Uh what we're learning more, I I guess I didn't realize. I don't think any of us talked about anything for 20 years. I I and it's not I
Casualties In Late April And May
SPEAKER_04don't it maybe for some people it's painful. I don't think there are good words to talk about the experiences easily with people that were not there. And so what do you go up and say? What do you say to a widow? What do you say to a a daughter who lost their father, right? That I man, I don't know if I have those words. I can say sorry for your loss, but that's bullshit, right? That's not that doesn't even begin to express what you actually feel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my thing was when I when I I had all the kids with me at the wedding, and I was like, hey, it's supposed to be a happy day. All right, so I'm not going to you know, but there's stories about your dad that you need to hear. Um, and I want to tell you about them. And good, bad, and ugly. And there, you know, there wasn't too much good, bad, and ugly. There was some drama, you know, whatever. I'm not gonna go down that road, but sure, um, but I told him, I'm like, I did tell him, like, your father was a war fighter, and I'm like, and you should be proud of that. Um, he was a guy that you wanted on your team. Um, and I know that he loved all of you very much, and that's basically what I said. And I'm like, if there's ever a time after this where you want to talk about it all the time in the world, but I felt horrible because you know, I think myself, just like you said, a lot of others, it's like we kind of just let it go. I didn't I was really looking forward to talking to you guys today because it's like, man, I haven't seen those guys in forever, you know. And they're both doing great things now. You know, I I get a lot of updates from Harden and and other people on you guys, but you know, it's just one of those things where I was just like, you know what? Um, if I could go back, uh I should have been a bigger part. Um, but it was just I didn't even see him in Arlington. I was in station in DC for three years and I just couldn't do it. Yeah, you know, it's just like yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think there's a lot. I mean I I agree with Shane. Uh we've talked about it. Um Shane and I have been very close all the way since boot camp, and we stayed extremely close throughout the years and stuff like that. And so he and I have had probably more discussions about Ramadi than uh potentially the average um guy, but only between the two of us. Um it was only until this podcast really started going that I really realized that like I I haven't told any kind of real stor. I mean, maybe a snippet, you know, like a very quick story and stuff like that. But for the most part, I kept it in my pocket. I it's not that I was ignoring it. It wasn't that I was trying to not talk about it, but it just always felt disingenuous. And the amount of I don't know what word I want to use, the uh amount of like qualifying statements that I always felt necessary to tell any specific story, it it ruined the run of what I was trying to do in the first place because I was trying to tell a funny story, but it turned out to be too much gallows humor, or it turned out to be, you know, whatever I want to use all my acronyms and not have to explain each time, you know, like you know, what is an ACOD, you know. And um I've uh yeah, and so I don't I I think there's a and I don't know if also is that this is 20 years on, you know, we're one of the hardest things that I've recently been kind of dancing with since the podcast started is the idea that I couldn't I like I was like, man, I wish we would have done this earlier because I know a lot of a lot of people are getting a lot of benefit from this. Um me uh in particular, just talking about it. But I I don't think I could have handled it earlier than 20 years. I mean, like this this is this is the first time that I'm mentally, emotionally in this space to be able to have enough distance to be able to talk about it without feeling I don't I don't know what words I want to use at this point, but but I think it it's I guess my my only slight point is it with the last thing you said there was like try not to judge yourself too harshly on the younger Leighton that you know you know I know you have kids, you know, you can't you keep you you you know as a as a parent, you have you know you have the perspective of being like, man, you don't like like don't you have a lot of life to live, guys. Like don't don't don't beat yourself so much about it, you know, kind of giving yourself the same grace looking back at younger Lou, younger Shane, younger Blake of being able to like, man, you you did a lot for giving a shit sandwich.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, it's it's kind of crazy now if you if you could see the transition and how they prepare people to go just be a motorized rifle company, right? Like we were mortarmen. Uh Shane, I think you were 52, right?
SPEAKER_04Like I was, toe gunner, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like you know, and it's like, hey, 0311, here you go. It's easy. You got two weeks, three weeks of this in ITV. Like, oh yeah, you know, the only thing that saved me was squalliers. Uh, because uh, you know, it was already bad enough. It would have been a lot worse leading leading my guys if I hadn't had that course for sure. But I I agree with you, Blake. I think it's we're more mature now. The the podcast, the talk would have been a lot different if we would have done it a couple years after, you know, five, maybe a decade. Um, it would have been a lot different. And it's a lot different for you guys too. You know, I was still surrounded by Marines each and every day. And so a lot of the stories got told as teaching moments, like we've already kind of discussed. A lot of those stories have been told. Um, not so in particular, you know, about you know, loss and things like that necessarily. Um, but you know, it's one of those things where, you know, we definitely had the conversations of, you know, hey, this, this, and I learned a ton. I mean, uh came back uh a lot better off than I went in when it comes to knowledge base and just you know knowing what and what not to do.
SPEAKER_04100%. Well, I'm gonna pull you out of your feels. We'll go uh we'll go back uh a little bit to the deployment. Okay. What do you remember from the summer, man? Uh so here, I'll throw a few things at you. Moving out of May, the next big bug hunt was like June 1st. Mattis, as you talked about before, he was kind of running around in the June time frame. Uh let's see. Condi was clear. Condi was.
SPEAKER_02That governor got station. We did the left seat, right? Or not the left seat, but the uh the handover to the ICDC and the IPs, which was an absolute shit show. End of end of June. Any yeah, anything coming into the end of June?
SPEAKER_01Early I I want to tell a funny story. I don't know what it is, but it's about Master Guns Markey.
SPEAKER_04But uh, it's good. Do it.
SPEAKER_01If you remember uh our battalion Master Guns, uh, I'm not gonna say his name, I don't want to do that, but that's fine. Pretty sure I remember it. But he called him the Black Hawk Pinata. I don't know if you guys remember this.
SPEAKER_00No, but that's awesome. Oh gosh. All right.
SPEAKER_02Gunny Gunny had the best nicknames I've ever heard in my entire life. He was he had a knack for giving people nicknames. But go ahead, please tell the story.
SPEAKER_01I talk about him and I talk about first art Mac. I've told so many stories about those two, but anyway. Um, and so but he called him the Blackhawk Pinata. We were at the government center with Gunny Maraki one day, and he saw Master Guns laying down, sleeping in the back of a Humvee, you know, black hawked out. Like he had every piece of gear known to mankind. And I can't remember, I want to say this Gunny
Grief Protocols And Staying Professional
SPEAKER_01Maraki made this poster of him and said, wanted Blackhawk pinata. He posted them all. I'm pretty sure it might not have been a picture he might have drawn it. I can't remember, but I remember him, and I remember we were in the chow hall, and I can't remember how our chow hall morphed, but it was if you guys remember, it wasn't huge. No, no, no, super tiny. So Master Guns was in there, and not Meraki, our Master Guns was in there eating, and Gunny Maraki, like I don't know if this was before or after, but he hated him. He he didn't like a lot of people, right? So um, but uh he he was like he's like, come outside, you mother, you know, come outside. And he's like, What gunny? You know, what are you talking about? He's like, get outside, get outside, and then Mac, you know, old Alfonso Mac jumped in.
SPEAKER_00He's like, Gunny, you know, Gunny, come out, hey, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's just like, and I just remember, but he did not like he didn't like him, he didn't like Sergeant Major Booker. I came out one day, I was going on a run, it was super early. I was just gonna run around Hurricane Point, and I saw Gunny Maraki and Sergeant Major Booker face to face, like going at it, just yelling at each other. And I remember first hard Mac coming out and being like, Gunny, you know, Gunny, come here, you know, it was so hilarious. But that dude was just, you know, it's like if you remember, other people were running out of ammo while we were there. Yeah, we never ran out of ammo, right? That was because Gunny Maraki, he was just he was a bad dude, um, you know, in the good sense, you know. Absolutely. He was amazing. And I remember, I'll tell you this story. I saw him when he was a Master of Guns. Me, Kevin Sakaki, and I think Jimbo Harden went and saw him in his office. And so we go up, he's the battalion ops chief. We're talking with him, just shooting, you know, shooting the breeze, just talking with him. He pops open his window, lights a cigarette, smoking inside the building. And I'm just like, I'm not surprised, you know, but it's just, you know, it's just him. The battalion commander comes in while we're in there. He sees him smoking, you know, and and Master Guns Marky's like, what's going on, sir? Oh, and you know, the battalion commander's like, Oh, I didn't know you had company, Master Guns. Oh, when you get a chance, come on down and talk with me.
SPEAKER_00Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01Like, how can someone be more awesome than this man right here? You know, I remember there was a guy, I think it was like, if you guys remember the first contact I think we had, maybe not the first contact, but the whole company, we were driving down what was it, Nova? And we took fire from the river, from the riverside. And I'm pretty sure it was right in the beginning, and it was all of us, I want to say. And so people were turning fire, and there was someone shooting over the hood. And I think I know who it was, I'm not gonna say. So, you know, but he's shooting over the hood, and Gunny Markey like kicked him. He's like, What the hell are you doing? He's like, you know, and it was just like it's just like one of those funny stories. It's just like, and I got a million of that guy. Um, oh yeah, last one, and then I'll move on and and and talk about something else. But remember Leilong? Oh, yeah, sure. He hated Le Long. I don't know why, I can't remember, but he called him Daydong. He hated him. And he would come in in the middle of the night, like two in the morning, and he'd be like, Daydong. And he and Leilong would wake up like out of a dead sleep, like, yes, Gunny, and he's like, Go clean my shitters. You guys remember we had those three Portageons, maybe four or two, I don't remember how many. Yeah. Leilong would be out there two in the morning with a hose and a scrub bush cleaning these portagons. I remember him coming up to me one time and he's like, Why does Gunny hate me so much? And I'm like, uh Daydong. I was like, Leilong, I don't know, brother, but uh, you just better, you know, you better listen to what he says. I remember uh map two, was that Anthony's?
SPEAKER_04Map one was Anthony, map two was my platoon.
SPEAKER_01That was your platoon, that's right. Okay, so map one was Anthony's. If you remember, Gunny Mark, he'd be like, smoking pit right here, five minutes. Because if he didn't smoke in the smoke pit and he caught you, he was gonna kill you. Yeah, maybe that's why he didn't like Leylong. I don't know, but um, I remember he sent someone in there to go get him out so that they could police call, right? And nobody was coming out. And he's like, he looks at me, he's like, Glue three. Didn't I send someone in there like a couple minutes ago? Say send a few guys out. Like, and I was like, Oh shit. And I'm like, Yeah, gonna you did. And he goes in there, and there's people naked, half dressed, just running out of that hooch after I was like, oh my god. It's like you did not want to be lit up by that guy. He was just, I know him, and I think he probably got like 65 niplocks from Captain Weiler. Uh you know, uh just stories I've heard, and you know, now afterwards, and after the fact. But yeah, he was such an awesome dude, such a great uh infantryman. And um I learned a lot from him. He was great. So but I remember that, you know, just you know, some of those funny stories. Um I remember, I can't remember who it was. But afterwards, we were doing like another bug hunt, and this is another funny story, but it I wasn't very happy at the time. So we had put some Constantino wire across the road, and you know, and we were set up there and we were kind of we were just holding security for everybody clearing to make their way up to us. And so Bowers is on the 240, and all of a sudden I just hear, you know, and I'm like, Bowers, like, what are you shooting at? He's like, someone popped their head out. I'm like, hey man, might not be a bad guy. I'm like, relax, but it's okay. Um, you know, so um no issues after that. But I remember going up to the top of this building, and I'm just trying to, you know, just get observation, just trying to look around, see what's going on. And I see a guy run in the cordon. And I hear a shot. And it was Hersher, he got a warning shot, right? He didn't want to shoot him because it the guy had some mental issues, but you know, and I'm like, so I run down, I'm like, Hersher, what are you doing? He's like, Oh, this guy broke through. I think, and so they had him stopped. And so I'm going, I'm walking up to where he stopped, and this guy is scared, and he takes off again. He gets away from him. Martinez, uh, who is a sawgunner, one of my guys, big, big kid, uh, it starts running after him, and I'm like, catch him, Marty. And he's just like, I can't, Sergeant. He's I got this song. I was like, Oh, now I crack up about him. I was so pissed. I finally catch up to this guy. But um, and we believe that someone
Telling The Stories Twenty Years Later
SPEAKER_01had, you know, he he was mentally challenged, and someone had told him, like, hey, go over there. Because we like this guy, like we were flexicuffing him, and he thought he was gonna die. I mean, he was so strong. And uh one of the Iraqi police came over and he's like, I got him, I got him. He's like, you know, kind of gives us the hand signal, take off the handcuffs, the flex cuffs. We take them off, and the guy just gets up and walks with them, you know, and it's just like um, you know, that's one thing that sticks out in my mind, probably because, you know, kind of some humor with that. But um, you know, I'm trying to, I do remember, um, I don't know if you guys, I know you guys weren't on it, but we went and picked up Echo Company's commander when he got relieved.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Oh, that's right. I would love I would love to hear that story, but I do remember you guys were there for that.
SPEAKER_01Sure, so we've got that. Yeah. Yeah, we took Colonel Kennedy and Sarge Major Booker over to the outpost, and they did an impromptu, they did an impromptu command climate survey. And they're like, and whatever the results were, we're not good. We were there for a few hours. And so uh we go, and at the end of the day, uh, I think Captain Smith was his name. Um, maybe I shouldn't have said that name, but regardless, there's a lot of Captain Smith. So um but uh he they relieved him. So we got in the back of, I think it was my Humbee, maybe Lieutenant Dobbs, I can't remember, but we took him back to Blue Diamond. Um, and I remember him walking up the steps, and it was Colonel Dumford, you know, now General Dumford, right, retired doing great things. Our regimental commander, I guess, at one point in the beginning, right? But um, yeah, he's there and he's just kind of shaking his head, and I see Mattis come out, just look at him, like scowl, say something real quick, and then just walk down the steps and came over with us. We were, you know, over at the child hall. And you know, but I remember I was just like, oh man, this is not good. Um, but yeah, that was the experience. Um, yeah, not a good place for a captain uh to have the uh chief of staff of the division, and then the CG come down and uh I don't know what ended up happening with him.
SPEAKER_04I try to look into it a little bit, but it was a dead end because his name, his name was not Captain Smith, but I'll send you his name offline since it's not our story to tell. And I'll and I can give you some information. Information on that. That is uh yeah, it was unfortunate and it lasted a long time. There's a lot of investigations into that, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, you know, it's just like you know, talking about that with Echo Company, um you know, it was rough for them, you know, it was rough for them. Um and you know, they had some they had some guys in that company that just shouldn't have been squad leaders. And I'm just gonna say that, and I'm not gonna use names, but I remember we found one of the squad leaders in a pump house scared to death twice after his squad got ambushed, and a lot of people died. I want to say on one of the ambushes like five or six, you know, and one failed swoop, you know, and I don't think we were on both of them. I think we were on one. I I can't remember, things get super fuzzy, but I know we were on one, and I just remember that guy, he was a sergeant and he got selected for promotion on that deployment. And I just remember being super pissed, and I'm like, how does this happen? Like, like that, there's no way, like this this promotion system is flawed. And I remember talking to maybe Gunny Cook or somebody about it. I'm like, this is ridiculous, you need to do something. I'm like, this guy's not fit to lead. And and I wasn't in the situation, getting ambushed sucks. I get it, I get it, but like, listen, brother, uh, pump house next to the river, way far away from the road where you got ambushed and your guys are dead? No, we had a sergeant that um we had a sergeant that we wouldn't let go out of the wire. Yes, and that we sent to Echo Company. Yep, and then we went out and I saw him as a squad leader, and so I pulled over the platoon commander that was with him, and I'm like, you know that that guy did not leave on good terms from weapons company, and he's like, uh, you know, he's doing all my and I ended up working for that lieutenant when I was an instructor at Squalier's course, he was a captain in charge of the schoolhouse, but yeah, you know, it's just like um one thing that I used to say after this whole experience that I learned from, and it's unfortunate way Echo Company, and they had some great guys, right? Like, so I don't want that to get misconstrued, and you know, I don't know, none of us know what was going on with the FCO company, not for sure because we weren't there, yeah. We got blessed, we had some pretty good leadership, I think. Um, great leadership, and so, but you know, it's just one of those things where you know you can't expect a lot. Marines shouldn't, you know, expect a lot. Like sometimes you're not gonna eat, sometimes you're not gonna drink water for a while, uh, you know, and I don't think Marines deserve that. I I think they need it, right? But like you don't deserve a lot as a Marine. But one thing you do deserve is good leadership. Um, and that's one thing that kind of from like our experiences in Ramadi that I kind of learned and I kind of adopted uh as time goes when I talk to people, you know, especially sergeants. I would just be like, you know, Marines deserve good leadership. I'm like, there's this we're small. What we do and how we school our officers, and now our NCOs, and even back then our NCOs, you know, a lot more mature back then than they are now. Um, NCOs are still crushing it and they're a lot better in certain ways, but you know, um, you know, it was very interesting as I moved on, kind of seeing that. But you know, it's like back to echo company. I was just like, man, you know, they got they got a rough, you know, rough go. And they had some good leaders. I mean, I liked Bernard Coleman, old Gunny Coleman, right? Was their company gunny, right? You know, and I know a lot of people didn't like his style so much, but you know, if you've talked to Sakaki or some of those guys, they have some good stories about, yeah, he was he was rough and tough, but like at the end of the day, he was uh yeah, I think he was a good leader. So it's just rough what they went through, and it really sucks. Yeah. Because one thing, we went and picked up that sniper that got shot on that rooftop. Yeah. So we were the ones that had to go up and and pick them up and bring them down, you know, and it's just like, yeah, you know, you're just wondering, it's like, what's the deal? Like, what is going on with this? Um, and I don't know what the results of those command. Well, I know what the result was of the command climate survey, I don't know what the comments
Summer Memories And Dark Humor Relief
SPEAKER_01were. Sure. But it was just bad all around. So yeah, that was that was a story on uh, like I said, I wish I would have known what Mattis said to him, but yeah, no kidding.
SPEAKER_04I'd love to have been a fly on the wall to hear that one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh as a quick aside, and I don't know, uh Shane, I don't even know if I sent this to you before or not, but um in 2017, I wrote this note to myself just uh as a as a weird point of history for our for ourselves. Second Battalion, 4th Marines, Ramadi 2004. We served under Mattis as division commander, now Secretary of Defense. Mattis's assistant division commander was John Kelly, who now is Chump's chief of staff. Mattis's chief of staff was Joe Dunford, now chairman joint chiefs of staff. Yeah. So at one point in for so and and just kind of as a larger storyline of how absolutely insane Ramadi 2004 was of how people that were kicking around over there, so many people went the distance. Like we're at the top end of stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, 100%. I'm trying to think, you know, who else. You know, obviously, we have guys from our own company that are at the at the top of their game. I mean, right, um, doing great things. I I double tapped, I can't remember where old General Weiler is now, but um he's attached and he's attached to the European command.
SPEAKER_04Oh, nice, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you know, but yeah, just just crazy on you know how much great things and how many great things have come from uh that unit and just everybody around us.
SPEAKER_04Well, let's see, I'll drag you back to the deployment just for a second. You did talk about you participated in the handoff with 2-5, and that was a eventful handoff to say the least.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You've mentioned a couple of memories, just specifically that seven-ton taking a wrong turn and you having to remind them uh hey, follow the convoy. It probably probably less nice language. Anything else stand out from the handoff other than uh just the difference in leadership and that their leadership seemed to not want to listen to our advice?
SPEAKER_01I will tell you that yes, right, but now you know, after doing that, you know, for 23 years, uh-huh, it's pretty common, right? And this is this is how I observed it, and this is how I've seen others. Sure. Uh they came in um with all this great training and all these things they did, right? And I think at that point I had understood that like that training's great. I'm not gonna say that it's not, but you're gonna get a lot from our experiences and us telling you our experiences and us showing you around than any of that. Um I remember at one point we were supposed to they were gonna go out the next morning, and they're like, we were like, okay, hey, just wake us up and we'll go with you. And they left us. And the reason they left us is because they were tired of us trying to give them information, right? And it well, we weren't being jerks. Yeah, I wasn't very nice to the seven, the three people in the seventh on that one night because I was just I was like, this is horrible. Like, you guys, you know, at the end of the day, I should have just been up there. I'm like, did you see the convoy take the second exit, not the first exit on the roundabout? You know, the answer is probably no, because that's why they went that the way they did. Right. Right. But you know, I was just like, you, you know, I was basically just telling them they're idiots. They they already knew that, right? So um 20 years later, it's like they already knew that. But um it's that maturity thing that we were talking about earlier. Exactly, right? It's just because we've had more experience now and we know that hey, bad things happen, it's not a big deal. Like, you know, I just I didn't have that maturity at that point, but um, I remember them leaving us, and I was like, and I kind of knew why. And I was just like, hey guys, like you can do whatever you want, you're taking over, but um, what we have to give you is important, right? And they wanted to do their own way, their own thing, and and and I get it, and I get it, right? Because every unit's kind of like that. I want to say that I never was, I just observed, and I took and I would take everything I could from who I replaced, you know, no matter which deployment it was. Um, and I've seen people replace us, and like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, especially Afghanistan, the guys that replace us there, I was just like, I remember talking to the guy, and I was just like, listen, I'm trying to tell you, like, you have there's nothing you could have gone through that prepared for you interacting with these people here. I've been doing it for seven months. I'm like, I need like, I'm telling you, because it was just, and you know, and I think that's kind of what I what I gain from that now. Looking back, it's just like every unit sometimes is kind of like that. And we expect Marines to kind of have a chip on their shoulder, be confident in themselves. 100%. You know, I'm not saying that we weren't. Um, we didn't have a chance, you know. In my experience, I didn't have a chance to tell the army to, you know, screw off. I don't need you. So I think I only got the one chance, but you know, and and to what you guys said, they had a different mission. You know, we were you know hunting for IEDs.
SPEAKER_04Um, it was just they were just trying to keep the lights on long enough for us to get there. I mean, that is very different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, no, 100%. Right. And like I said, and I've worked with the army plenty of times after that, and you know, all good experiences. But um, you know, it's just that was my biggest thing taken from them is like they kind of just dismissed us at one point because they were tired of being told that, you know, and it wasn't like, and we like I don't remember being a jerk about it, and I don't think I would have been. I would have been like, hey, you should probably should do this. Hey, this is this, you know. And I think you're just getting tired of us kind of telling them, like, what are you doing? Like, no, don't do that. You know, there would be certain things that would happen. I'm trying to remember, you know, specific example I can't, but like, no, you should not do that. Like, that is a bad idea, you know. And then I think we voiced our concerns, can't remember who it was. We're like, I think we asked to stay. Me and Garcia asked to stay. Like, these guys need help. And I think it was Cunny Cook, he's like, absolutely not. He's like, You're coming back, bud. He's like, sorry, guys, like, no. I'm like, and then I remember leaving that day in the back of a seven-ton, I want to say. Yeah, when we were the you know, the last ones leave Hurricane Point and just seeing the snake pit in it to win it, like World War III, like shooting small rockets at the cyclic. I ended up talking to a guy that was over there after, and they shot like 80 something smalls, I believe.
SPEAKER_04I don't know how many that guy shot, but it he shot all of them. That's the answer. He shot every small rocket he had in the tower, yeah, and every and every machine gun, every bit of machine gun ammo and switched to his his uh M16.
SPEAKER_01And I understood that they lost checkpoint 295 for a time there.
SPEAKER_04Wasn't long, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's good. I talked to a CB who was in Ramadi after that, you know, when they had split the
Echo Company Crisis And Relief Of Command
SPEAKER_01city up, um, you know, three different units. It's just yeah, crazy. Uh held it with one. That's right. You know, it's like we caught them in their infancy, just like we were talking about, right? We were all kind of new.
SPEAKER_00Uh but yeah, we did. Yeah. Well so go ahead.
SPEAKER_02I was just gonna say, uh, I was as I say, we've uh we've gotten ourselves over to uh Junction City, um, eventually Camp Ramadi there. But uh before we go completely off the off of that part of it, do you have any hooch stories like back in the back in the like your downtime? Some of the I know uh there's a lot of we were up to a lot of antics at that point, and so wasn't sure if you had any any uh particularly good ones from that time.
SPEAKER_01Well, having Hersher and Hodges around was always a good time. Uh they always made things fun. Um I don't think uh, you know, I can't think of anything very specific. Um I just remember a lot of first art max stuff, and I'll tell a couple because I love the man. Um I remember having to wake him up one time. We went to the outpost, and I don't know if you were you guys were there, um, but we were doing a big operation, maybe one of the bug hunts, and we stopped that night there to just get a few hours of sleep before we went out at the crack you know, zero.
SPEAKER_02We were doing a couple times, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, and I remember Captain Wyler, I believe it was him saying, Hey, Leighton, go wake up first art, you know, and I'm like, and I'd heard stories about waking him up, you know, and I'm like, uh, you know, I don't know. And I remember like going to his boot and kind of like just shaking it, you know, like first art, first art. And I'm like, man, I don't want to get close to the this guy's paws, you know. Uh, for everybody that doesn't know first art Mac, how I explained him as the like the one of the biggest people. He looks like the dude from the green mile, is what I tell people.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, and just an awesome human being. Uh, I think the only time I heard him cuss was at Hersher. Uh that was after the deployment. No, I think it might have been during the deployment. I can't remember, but that's the only time I've ever heard him. Uh, but but I remember just going up and finally I made my way up to his shoulder, you know, and I'm like, I shake him pretty hard, and he kind of got up and he's just like, he doesn't have his glasses on. He's like, oh, he looked like you know, King Kong awakening from sleep. I just I barely made it out of his reach because he swung at me. And uh and he looks at me and he's like kind of like you know, waking up and he's like, uh he's like, what's going on? And I'm like, first time it's time to go. He's like, oh, okay, you know, and he gets up. Uh another one, obviously, all the times that he was trying to pull Gunny Maraki back off, whoever it was that Gunny Maraki was getting into it with, uh, was always hilarious. And then um, but I remember one day we got in a fire firefight the day before. First sergeant was with us. I think it was when Lioness was with us. We got, you know, it was just kind of like all day long, whatever. But I remember the next day we were out in the same area, and I remember first sergeant Mac going, and he carried that shotgun. I don't know if you guys remember that shotgun. And and he's like, like, oh, that's where I got shot at yesterday, right over there, right there, you know, and I just remember laughing, just because how we talk, you know, just that I think he was from South Carolina, but you know, just that Southern, just he was so funny. And I remember just, you know, the way like he'd be like, Oh, Sergeant Leighton, you know, just the way he laughed. And um, yeah, he made things great and fun. And, you know, I I think he did just an amazing job of taking care of all of us, one. Um, but just just him and just the way he was. He was just he he brought uh a lot of relief and morale to everything that he did. So it was awesome. Um, some of the other antics. I know Gunny Cook didn't like it too much when I took a Ponte's rack, I duct taped it together and we were trying to make a person on top of the hooch. Um we didn't get complete with it because Gunny Cook came by and he was pretty pissed, and he's like, get that down, you know. So um, but you know, we pulled it down. I remember Sergeant Major Estrada came and saw us. Do you guys remember that? No. No, no, I'm Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps.
SPEAKER_04I remember the so I remember we had the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, but I don't think I was even on the base at the time. And you might have been out, yeah. And the Commandant came at some point too.
SPEAKER_01I think they were together, so they were together, but I remember Estrada came into our hooch. Oh, and I was just coming out of the shower, and I was like, oh gosh, like, you know, like people are all buck naked. I'm basically half naked, you know, talking like shake his hand. It's like, what's going on? He gets in this conversation with me. I'm like, you know, it'd be nice if I could get drunk started so I can talk to you here. So um, I remember the tops of those hooch. Remember when they were just tense? Oh yeah. And they're blowing off, and you're just like, oh gosh.
The Handoff To 2-5 Lessons Learned
SPEAKER_01Um, another funny thing is, I think after a while we got kind of immune to rocket mortar fire on the fob. A hundred percent, you know, and we're just like you hear it coming in and just roll over in your rack, go back to sleep, you're like, whatever. Yep, you know. Um, you know, I'm trying to think. Yeah, I mean, really, there was a ton of antics. I remember when Rocha really pissed off Lechard. Uh I don't think Musser, you might know this, but Shane, I don't know if you probably never heard of it, but I thought it was something that pops in my mind. Uh Lashard was pretty belt fed, you know, and I think he was talking with Rocha, and Rocha wasn't calling him sergeant. And so, and Rocha was a Lance Corporal, and he's like, it's sergeant. He's like, Oh, okay. He's like, No, it's sergeant, you know, and they just went back and forth. And it's funny, finally I'm like, Roach, shut up. You know, I'm like, you're not gonna win this dude. But you know, Roach was a funny dude anyway. Um, you know, I already told you about the the time with Aponte and Hodges. Um, yeah, I mean, besides that, you know, some stuff I don't want to say on the and then talk about.
SPEAKER_06That's fine.
SPEAKER_01That's fine. It's like as we said, everybody's 20 years older now, and I don't want their families to hear about all the crazy stuff they did. But um, but yeah, you know, I mean, my my main I, you know, remembrances are just we just had good times. Um, like I said, the worst of times too, yeah, for sure, 100%. Like, you know, people dying and everything else, but when you join the Marine Corps, uh, you know, I don't know what to expect. You know, um, if you expected to come in, get your college money and go, well, you might have a rude awakening, right? None of us, none of us, uh uh, I don't I don't know. I don't know how you guys feel about it, but I feel blessed. You know, I joined the Marine Corps for something, and I think part of that something was to do my job, and we got to do it. And you know, and I'm grateful for that because there's guys now that are coming in the Marine Corps and they'll never see combat. You know, the Marine Corps has a real hard time sustaining and maintaining staff NCOs in the infantry. I mean, before I left, it was real bad. Um you know, I talked to the monitor, I was trying to get a platoon sergeant, a staff sergeant, and he's like, brother, I got 600 billets not filled right now because I'm 600 staff sergeants short. Holy shit. Yeah, and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps came and talked to all of them, and they're like, What's the deal? And they're like, No more war. Why stay in? You know, where it was very different when we first came in, you know, different mindset.
SPEAKER_04Well I mean, let's see. If you I mean if you joined the unit in November, it was peacetime when you enlisted.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was.
SPEAKER_04There was there was no 9-11. And that's I I I mean, now that it's been 25 years, people can't even imagine probably what that feels like. That it was peacetime Marine Corps painting curbs and uh and uh cutting the grass and you know picking up cigarette butts was your challenge for the day, cleaning your weapon 23 times a week. Right? Like it it changed so rapidly, so fast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great point. No, absolutely, right. And that was but that's what I was seeing was step NCOs getting out.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, that's I it's boring to be the guy who's just telling people to police call all day long. I can see I can definitely see that if you're not trained in. Not terribly different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we were we were a bit different for sure.
SPEAKER_04Well to wrap a bow up on it a little bit since we've I mean we've covered a lot of things.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And you've talked about it in little snippets overall, but I'm just curious. Uh you look back on all this particular deployment is the point of the podcast, but I guess you have a long career, so it may be hard to divorce. What does all this stuff mean to you? What do you tell people?
SPEAKER_01What comes to mind when people thank you for that your service, right? Um I get kind of weirded out by that. You know, we all joined. I think a lot of us understood what what it meant by joining. And what I take from it is, you know, um, I think Ramadi, I mean, it formed the foundation for my career. I will say that. Um, you know, I learned a lot. But, you know, what it means to me is it just makes me think about how awesome it is that we live in a country where we have people who will raise their right hand to do what the kind of things that we did when we were in Ramadi, you know, and I used to tell my guys, it's like, I'm not gonna thank you for your service. You signed up, you're volunteers. I appreciate your service. That's what I will tell you, right? Because I'm not gonna thank you. Like, thank you for giving you a job and everything else. Yeah, it's a tough job. I don't want to discredit that, but you signed up for this. Why? Because you wanted something, you know, you wanted to live an abnormal life, you wanted to be better uh than everyone else. You know, that's most Marines. You know, why did you join the Marine Corps? Because I heard it was the baddest. That's why I didn't know. Right, I don't know. There's other units and other services that are probably that could have been better than us, but we didn't believe it, right? And that's good, right? That's awesome, you know. And as I move forward, I had squad leaders that were a pain when we were in Ramadi, I had team leaders that were a pain sometimes, right? Had Marines that were pain, and I and I appreciate it, right? Because it takes those kind of people to make the country that we live in today. And I think we have an amazing country. We've all been many places, some would not, you know. I've been all over the world now, you know, and it's just like there's no other country I'd rather be. And what I take from all of it is just like I'm happy and at peace that I know that there's people out there who will do the hard things to keep us safe, you know, and I just hope that we never lose that. You know, um, and I will tell you, at least two years ago, there's still amazing men
What Ramadi Means Now Closing
SPEAKER_01and women. You know, you got some ladies in the infantry battalions now, and they do great things. I'm just gonna be real. They made the standard, they meet the standard. That's enough I'll say about that. You know, obviously it does uh bring some issue uh with certain things, but you know, it's like, but we're in good hands. The Marine Corps is still doing great things. You know, I have a lot of guys like yourself that have been removed for a long time, you know, and maybe not you guys, but you know, the other ones are like, oh, you know, everything's woke now in the Marine Corps. I'm like, no, it's not. No, it's not. It's like, you know, remember when we were in? Yeah, well, now I'm I'm the sergeant major, man. Like, no, it's not woke, it's the same thing, just a different flavor. You know, we're still in the ice cream shop, it's just a little different. Like, you know, so it's just like, you know, when I hear people say that, it's like, oh, well, you you have to get this. No, we don't. I have done zero of that training, right? Like, Marines will still be Marines and they're still doing great things. Um, and you know, uh, the squad leaders I had in three, six are a lot smarter than the squad leader that I was in two, four. I'll tell that. So nice. Um, you know, it's like things have gotten better, but you know, it's just it's one of those things, and that's what I take from all of that is the best of times, the worst of times. I learned a lot. It built the foundation for my career and my life, in essence, right? It's where we were truly tested. Um could have been, you know, could have been better, could have been worse, right? But like we were tested. Um, and I got to see, you know, just and be around and interspersed with some amazing people, Condi. Um, I knew Condi before we went. We went to Squalier's course together. He, you know, I remember him running flat footed, and I used to make fun of him because he could, you know, because in boots, he was like, it was just so funny. But, you know, um, we had that guy that got shot. I don't I don't remember he wasn't in our platoons, he was in one of the maps, might have been in Shane's platoon, but got shot in the side and made his way back to Ramadi.
SPEAKER_04That was uh yeah, Lance Corporal Cummins shot right through the lung.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, came back two weeks later. It's just like that's the kind of people I want to be around, and that's the one thing I miss about the Marine Corps the most. I'm not gonna speak for you guys, but I I am I am damn sure that you miss the same thing as just you're around some awesome human beings, uh, and some people that you really enjoy. And now being out, um, I get to work with the Air Force, so it's still cool, right? It's not the Marine Corps, that's for sure. But um, you know, I still get a piece of that. You know, it's still people that have decided to serve their country and and they're and they're a really great group of people, but um, you know, it's just one of those things where uh that's the thing I miss the most. That's the thing that you know I take from it all and just remember all the amazing people and the amazing opportunities that we had, even though, you know, just like with anything else, you get bad with with the good.
SPEAKER_04That's good, man. That's a great way to wrap it up.
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