Constant Combat

How Much Of Survival In War Is Luck? - Chris Winder (part 2 of 2)

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We pick up part 2 with Chris Winder as he walks us through a chaotic moment after an IED blast to the quiet weight of whats in your head during these overwhelming events. He also takes a big picture view including leadership lessons, chemical scares, coming home, and what all of it means two decades later. 

• Engineers sweeping for IEDs
• Stopping a taxi and losing control of a growing crowd 
• A curfew chase
• How good leaders raise the bar
• Rethinking “shitbag” labels and how the system treats coping 
• April 6 bridge watch
• The sniper house story
• Handling the fallen and seeing the hidden toll of a casualty officers life
• CS gas, chemical threats, and changing behavior 
• Coming home to Camp Pendleton
• What Ramadi means 20 years later to Chris and why it still matters 



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Part Two And Setting The Scene

SPEAKER_01

This is part two of our conversation with Chris Winder of Sledgehammer 2.

SPEAKER_03

Alright, so some of the other stuff that I uh kind of remembered. I remember doing Overwatch on the lake or whatever. It was near the arches. And we were doing Overwatch out there on the on the hill. And uh this one particularly frustrates me personally just because uh I feel like I fucked up. But um we were out there on the top of the hill, and it blew my mind every time we do this, we we'd do this, but the engineers would patrol ahead of us with their mind detectors. And I was like, and all I thought as a PFC, I was just like, there's gotta be another reason tactically that they're able to do this, right? It just makes no damn sense uh to just put these guys in the front like that, you know, and knowing now like, yeah, that's exactly what we did. They were just uh, you know, if they uh if they found it with their metal detector and there was no one there to set it off, we're good. And if there was someone there to set it off, you know, the worst half.

Overwatch, An IED, A Taxi Stop

SPEAKER_03

Um the uh we're sitting there on Overwatch, and and I remember uh one of the IEDs going off, and then all of a sudden, a um one of those orange and white taxis start taking off down Michigan. And uh something comes over the radio, they're like, hey, you guys need to go stop that taxi. And so me and John and everyone else from that last vehicle go running down the road or down the hill, get in our Humvee, go stop that guy, get him detained. Well, in the process of getting him detained, we're holding up the whole road, and traffic starts to build, right? Which means he starts getting sympathizers there with him. And uh Escabel, Sergeant Escavel is the platoon sergeant, and he winter watch these guys, and one dude keeps trying to leave. And I'm like, no, sit down, sit down, you know, and then fucking something distracts me. And the next thing I know, I'm watching these guys, and then Escabel's like asking another dude, hey, where's your buddy at? And he's like, you know, and then he looks at, he's looking over, he's like, where the fuck's your buddy at? And then I start looking around, and the next thing I know, I'm like, uh fuck, dude, is like, do I have everybody? And uh, I'm pretty sure one of those fucking guys got away, and that as a PFC I had to go up to Escabel and just be like, um, I think the guy you're looking for is fucking gone. And he's and you know how like dad instead of beating you is just like disappointed. I was I was so fucking mad at myself for letting that happen, right? And and who knows if it's the same guy, not just some dude trying to get off, but in my mind, it it's the guy, right? And I mind some fucking asshole who blew up one of our Marines fucking got away because of me. And uh it just goes back to this whole like uh immaturity thing, but at the same time, like not understanding exactly where I'm at and shit that I kind of hated back then. And uh at the same time, it's just that confusion and that fog of war, whatever they want to call it, you know, like they we had the right amount of we had the right dudes caught, I feel like, but then more and more people started getting there and started kind of creating uh uh that um confusion and havoc, and the fucking dude took advantage of it, I feel like, and got away. And at the same time, he might have been just some dude who wanted to get home, but I feel like it was the dude tied to to the guy who set off that IED, and that and I fucking hate that. So but um yeah, that's just that was one of the things that I was remembering the other day. Um oh, so while very early on, we ended up with um we had Wilbur, right? Was that the translator's name?

SPEAKER_00

Big big bro.

SPEAKER_06

Yep. Um well the big guy, big, the big guy was Ravaco. Wilbur was more slender, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Wilbur was a little dude.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So we're out, and I was in the last vehicle, and this is one of our very first patrols, I

Curfew Chase And Debrief Lessons

SPEAKER_03

think. And um somebody goes running off, and we stop and we chase him after curfew. And I remembered following behind one of the interpreters, and he starts shooting his gun off in the air. And I thought we were taking fire, and I'm like literally right behind him. And I was like, I was just like, what the fuck's going on? Who's he shooting at? And I see he's just shooting at in the air to try and get the guy to stop. Um, but I believe Gunny Cook and and I thought it was you, um Muster, who was ahead up there with him, and uh he uh a couple guys get shot, and I end up running past them, and then that's kind of all I remember. We ended up coming back and debriefing, and I remember right, uh Cook was talking with you about he was just like kind of questioning about how everything went down, and I remembered you saying, here's why we were good, man. Like it was afraid curfew, these were their you know, indicators, this is the activity they're doing. But I just remembered hearing, like, oh like we have accountability of ourselves, you know, and it's good that we're all questioning what we did was right, but at the same time questioning that okay, am I off base on anything here? And having each other to say, no, dude, like I understand why you're questioning yourself, but here's why we're good also.

SPEAKER_06

Um I I've I very much remember this. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So where am I where am I where am I off on on all this?

SPEAKER_06

Or or like what other details are so um that one I I don't know if I think we've partially told this story at a from a different angle, but um, so this was when we were implementing the uh curfew stuff, and it turned out to be um about 14 uh well more than a half, more than a dozen guys from Kenya that had just gotten dropped off from getting trained in Syria to try to find a safe house. And literally, these poor bastards like they got dropped off and we came around the corner. I swear we changed it.

SPEAKER_01

I swear you change the country every time you tell the story. I'm 99% sure they're Sudanese, they're from Sudanese.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, Sudan or whatever. Africa, man. I don't know. I didn't know. It's a big place. They don't who knows. I wasn't part of the Intel process. I all I know is that there are some guys that should not have like it was past curfew, they were all like hanging out, and when we pulled up, they split. And there was a group of them that ran down the street, and a bunch of us went off after them. And we came around the corner and uh we shot a couple, we we got one in particular, and Escabel and I stayed behind with that guy as he was dying, and then Cook went back to the trucks and we were kind of figuring it out, and we had we had gotten a couple guys, and there was the debrief from that was well kind of what you heard, which was hey, was this a good stop? Was this, you know, like because this was the first time that we had like they weren't shooting at us, you know, and and we shot at them and kind of like was this a good, you know, more or less was this a was this a good um contact uh contact, right? And should could we have done this better? And we actually did change some stuff after that one because what ended up happening is uh the uh most of the leadership left the the rest of the platoon. And so like we like all of a sudden realized like the platoon commander, the platoon tune sergeant, and uh like two other three other NCOs had left the rest of the convoy, or not the convoy, but the rest of the platoon. And like so now we're away from everybody else, like we need to make sure that we are being more aware of how we are leaving, like who's going after what? Like, we can't just let ourselves like get brought into the firefight that way. We have to be smart about what we're doing, and we did change up some stuff, and actually that was the last that was the last day that I was Gunny Cook's driver, um, because he wanted me to get my own truck at that point because of how things we had we had gotten familiar enough with it. At first, he wanted me to be his driver as a lead truck because he trusted my sense of direction and map and et cetera, et cetera. But we felt like we had enough idea, and then he wanted to disperse his team amongst the platoon more to make sure that that that didn't happen again, where really that you know, like the truck, you know, you had the driver and the and a gunner, and then everybody left. And so then the the trucks and usually the gunner and the drivers were some of the more junior guys, and so like what are the you know, like what are they gonna do? I mean, I love Venice, I love uh Stadleman, I love you know Gwizdak, I love, you know, but to quite honestly, they weren't going to be making really good tactical sound decisions if something happened in that moment. Yep. And so we we did change stuff after that one.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Yeah, well, and I mean, yeah, like I said, just PSC overhearing it all and taking it in. And uh, I mean, the stuff that I took from you guys kind of set an unfair precedent for the rest of my career because uh, and I actually got me in trouble later because I've just held other leaders to such a standard that I was um insubordinate to ones who didn't rise to that. And uh

Leadership Standards And Aftermath At Home

SPEAKER_03

yeah, it became an issue.

SPEAKER_01

Um that's a long-standing weapons company tradition, anyway. So you're you're you're good. You're just upholding that standard anyway.

SPEAKER_06

I'm glad that I was able to ruin you for everybody else.

SPEAKER_03

Wade, cook, uh um uh Clark, uh, just everybody did, honestly. Uh it was to go to war with a certain group of people that were gonna keep you alive, uh, you guys were all it because everyone I saw afterwards, I doubt you know, I would have had a chance. So for sure.

SPEAKER_06

Um we had an amazing group. I mean, it was recently said that uh we were not only were we lucky with our upper leadership, but we had a lot of just amazing NCOs and junior Marines also. Like this this only worked because the entire team worked. We we really didn't have anybody just truly as a complete shit bag. Um, there was, you know, granted there was a couple, but but there were so few that it didn't, it thank god it didn't affect the mission.

SPEAKER_03

And and I don't know, I don't know who the heck I would call a shit bag these days because when we get back, I had such an opinion of guys who look back at it now, I'm like it's it's unfair to have that opinion. And and a lot of that is like guys who might have uh ended up on some kind of substance or guys who might have gone UA and stuff. Like initially I held it against them, but now I look back at it and I was like, no, the man, no. If that's all that happened, that's expected, right? Because of all the shit that they went through, uh, that all of us went through, and you know, it's expected to have some kind of coping mechanisms that occur. And um honestly to have punished anybody for going UA for using substances is fucking absurd to me. Uh, because what should have happened is they should have been like, holy crap, let's bring you in and let's take care of you um instead of whatever it's called, UCMJ, chaptering them out, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, you know, and it's like, yeah, we learn a lot of lessons from Vietnam and shit. It's like but there's always lessons to learn, and that's very obvious when you can see guys in our unit specifically who came back and were punished rather than helped. And yeah, that's some stuff that um I I hold against uh the Marines and and overall just I don't want to say government, but I I just some stuff that where I've changed personally about about how things went down and stuff. So um, but also because I hold it against myself because I I thought they were shit bags, and I'm like, no, they're not, man. They they went through some shit and you know, more shit than you did, and different ways of coping.

SPEAKER_06

So yeah, there's a lot of maturity that comes in 20 years of uh other life experiences for sure.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, sure, yeah. Um so let's see. Um April 6th. Uh we we all talk about that stuff, and uh my experience in it is limited. There's a few things I remember. I remember getting intel the night before going, hey, there's gonna be a big attack, or potentially a big attack on the bridges. And I was like, Well, hell yeah, man, put me on the bridge. You don't want to go up there. And so I volunteered for an extra watch, I think. And um, me and somebody else, I can't remember, we ended up on the north bridge, and I'm listening to John's thing.

April 6 Bridge Watch And Family Fear

SPEAKER_03

He ended up on the south bridge when it all happened, and I just remember everything kicking off. I don't remember exactly how, but I remembered seeing everybody leave. And then I'm itching to get down. I don't remember what I asked, but I think it was you, Musser, who you basically said something along the lines of, sorry guys, this is where we're stuck, or or like we're stuck up here, man. We're we're stuck. Something along the lines of like, fuck, we don't get to go. And I was just like, this is and uh so I remember sitting there watching cobras do circles, do gun runs. Um throughout the night, uh, some jets were dropping long-lasting, like two-minute alum rounds uh that would just light up the city, and so they were just lighting up Michigan all night long. And um Bradley vehicles, uh Bradley and Abrams just being parked at the end of both sides of the bridge, and uh that's where we ended up for basically the whole what was it, 24, 36 hours or so that all that all that stuff went down. Um not a single damn shot shot at us at the North Bridge.

SPEAKER_01

I just want to point out there's uh that's an interesting mentality. You're like they're gonna attack the bridges. You're like, I I want to do extra up on top of these bridges, which would actually be the worst place on the planet to be during an attack. Because it is you talk about being exposed beyond exposed. Any kind of coordinated assault would have wiped you off the planet. But that's awesome, man. That's that's balls out for you wanting to do it. But that's just I just think that's interesting. That's a young Marines mentality, like, hell yeah, I'm gonna go up on this bridge and fuck shit up. It's like, I don't know how you're gonna do that. You're in a plywood box on the top of a metal bridge.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, with a 240. So I was invincible because uh I had a 240 that we could use. So I think an AT4, I think. So yeah, who's gonna stop us? Nobody. So yeah, but um and then uh I I don't remember too much after all that. I do remember the phones being shut down for basically the whole month um because of all the Marines that were um killed and wounded. They had to notify their families and they weren't gonna open the phone trailer until that happened, um, which I remember right was a pretty standard thing. Yes. Um what I didn't know was happening was fucking Fox News and everyone else was just blasting us on the TV, and all my mom was seeing was this many Marines killed in Ramadi. And um called her near the end of April when the phones opened up and she just burst into tears. And I was just like, I don't remember laughing, but I just remember trying to be like, mom, I'm fine. Like I literally didn't do shit. I sat on a bridge, you know. I like, I've been out on patrols, I've been doing what I joined to do. And she was just like beside herself, and I was just like, um, I did my best to like console her, like the 19-year-old kid could do um to reassure her that I'm okay and that I'm doing what I wanted. Um, but yeah, that's that's what I remembered uh from basically that whole month. I I mean there's a lot of other stuff I remembered, like uh a lot of guys I went to the school of infantry with um ended up getting killed in Echo Company that day and stuff. And um uh Jarabek, I think, is one of them. He was a mortarman who was on a 240 that day.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

Um yeah, uh but yeah, just a phone trailer, man. So many memories there. And ultimately, that was one of the reasons I ended up getting out because I was re-enlist, preparing to re-enlist, go to Afghanistan in 2010, and uh I was married with a kiddo at that time, and I was like, some other things happened, but ultimately I was like, dude, I can't kudos, and honestly, you guys are more men than me who deployed with wife and kids because uh what I did to my mom, I couldn't imagine doing to my wife. So I was like, nope, time to leave. So yeah, yeah, like John, dude, like he left when um I think his name, his kid's name's Colin. Young man, and doing a lot of things. He was like three, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, I was married, I didn't have kids, but I uh I often think back. I mean, we've talked about it before on this, but I think about Savage quite a lot about that, because that dude, wife, a couple of kids, and he had a baby on the way. And a baby you never met because he died.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and uh it's tough stuff like that where I'm like, who am I to talk about any of this shit?

SPEAKER_05

You know? So uh but yeah, it's it's just what it is, I guess.

SPEAKER_03

So you know, uh I don't know if John brought it up in his, but his boy joined and and ended up ended up going to combat when there was no combat going on. And I'm like, you got you ladies are just fucking attracted to it, man. I swear.

SPEAKER_06

Well, if I remember the story correctly, uh it's even one step further, but they ended up Colin ended up going to the same fob in Afghanistan as that John had been to at some point, and so that's how like you know, that's how long we were in Afghanistan. That a father and son. 21 years, man.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. There there was even a story from the army of a grandfather, father, and son who had all served in the same area.

SPEAKER_03

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01

That's crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, all right, so that's kind of all I want to personally hit on for April. Um, the other thing that I remembered very distinctly was um I always refer to it as the sniper house, uh, that the Echo Marines were um killed in. Uh so I don't remember too much about it. I remember getting there in the morning, yeah, and I was there and I thought somebody was just getting their ass chewed, like somebody was losing their mind, like Marine Corps style on somebody. Uh, and I don't remember any of the details.

The Sniper House And Moving The Fallen

SPEAKER_03

So I don't know if it's somebody mourning or if it was somebody getting somebody in trouble because of what had happened. But I do remember uh having to load uh the Marines in in their body bags, and I was just like, it it's just so surreal to me. Like it was just another task that I had to do as a PFC and um loaded those guys up, and then we took off like a bat out of hell to uh TQ. Is that what it's called? Tacotum?

SPEAKER_06

Or I I think we took I think I think we went to Al-Assad.

SPEAKER_03

Al-Assad, that's that's the other one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that was that was my assumption. I don't think TQ had a morgue or Al-Assad flew them to the Baghdad morgue, one or the other. I I don't believe we went to TQ.

SPEAKER_03

So we went to Al-Assad, and I remembered getting blown up at least once on the way there, and it and at least once or twice on the way back. But I remembered getting there and seeing a guy from the Air Force who Who was the morgue uh supervisor or something? And that's when uh one of the first doses of reality for me, where I was just like, I'm like, dude, you're not as hard as you think, man. Like the people you call pogues, you know, this dude is technically a pogue, right? But he is literally dealing with every single guy who is killed out here. Like, that's who the hell can live with that? Uh, you know, and just that's tough, man. And I had a lot of respect for that guy. And I think if someone was talking to him, he says, Yeah, dude, we do four month deployments here. That that's all they allow us. And I was just like, oh, I was like, oh, that must be nice. And then I look back going four months of dealing with every single casualty in the Anbar province, it seemed like like that's insane, dude. Like, who can do that? So uh, but then um, so that that sniper house thing was always kind of frustrating to me, uh, because my understanding was okay, so this might be just a PFC perspective. But what I heard and what I remember was Echo Company was getting so many foot patrols, and then when on base, they were getting tasked with other things, and that the only time they felt like they had to rest was on their overwatch positions. And that the dude's house that they were using uh ended up getting confronted by who were those fuckers' names, the Mujadin. Um and threatened with, hey, tell us when they're asleep and then um let us know so we can come do this. And that he ended up doing that, and that and that's kind of how that happened. But um other than that, that's the only rememb memories or details I have of that incident.

SPEAKER_01

I I don't have confirmation of any of this, and maybe someday somebody who is smarter than me and worked on the investigation will will actually come out with the details, but I don't know that there are actual details. I'll give you all the I'll give you all the information I know from what I heard at the time and also what I figured out later, uh speaking to other people. You're correct on the echo company thing. That wasn't necessarily what happened with those guys because the snipers were technically a battalion asset. They were just operating with a few Echo Company reinforcements, so they were not patrolling, but often the echo company patrols were dropping them off. So basically, like a sniper team would tuck in with the patrol, they would dip off, you know, a couple of them, four of them would dip off and go into their house and whatever. They had been using this house longer than expected, and it was a house under construction. So even while they were up there, there were construction workers that were going in and out on the bottom, which meant that they, you know, nobody's stupid, man. You know who's in your area. If you're a construction worker, especially, you know who's around. You're there day in, day out, doing nothing else boring as hell, but laying down mortar on bricks. Like you're gonna know who's there. Right. And there had been an engagement maybe a week prior that the snipers had been involved in, and but they were still in the same place. So that hide was compromised. But the call was made to not vary anything up, they were still gonna use it.

SPEAKER_03

Got it.

SPEAKER_01

There was rumor that the men they were snuck up on somehow. So, either one of two things. Like you said, they all fell asleep, or potentially they had purchased food from the locals that was poisoned, and they were poisoned. And then that was how they got snuck up on. I don't know that either one of those are true, it could be something totally different, but those are the two different versions of the story that I've heard from two different groups of people. Either, either way, we all did see the Al Jazeera footage later, because Al Jazeera was there before any of our patrols were there to confirm that they were dead.

SPEAKER_06

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So somebody had called the news, and we got to see it because we saw the videos. And uh what you can see from the video is that those Marines were not aware that they were going to be attacked, right? They were still in the exact same positions they were in. There was one on the gun, and every one of them was shot at close range.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I don't know what happened from that. Uh that that's as much as I know as far as who was at fault or anything like that. I have no idea. But that's that is what happened to them.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. All right. Well, and like I said, I haven't listened to the rest of that book, so I don't know if he touches on that at all.

SPEAKER_01

He does. Yeah, and I don't think he knew anything, I don't think he knows anything more, reveals any more than what I just told you, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. And that's honestly one of those things that have always kind of that I've always kind of wished more would come out about. But I do remember a week or two later hearing a massive explosion, and then uh driving out there and somebody said, Yeah, uh, the engineers blew that house to smithereens.

SPEAKER_01

So Yep. Eight eight days, eight days later. Snipers were killed on the 21st, the morning of the 21st, and we blew it up on the 29th.

SPEAKER_03

Nice, good. Um all right. The CS grenade that was launched into our compound. You guys remember that?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Uh so it landed between my 81s and map one, I think that was right next to us. Blew out the back tires of theirs, peppered their wall, but the CS just pumped into our tent from or our hooch from the AC. It was a really small one. I think it was like a 40 mic mic. And I thought,

CS Gas Attack And Chemical Paranoia

SPEAKER_03

uh, CS, you know, whatever. But then it started dawning on me. I'm like, dude, if they can launch CS into here, what's to stop them from making anything and launching it into here? And apparently that's what the Marine Corps thought too, because they sent every fucking uh uh what were they called, seaburn guys, detectors and all that stuff, and like we became like the focus of investigation because this was like one of the first times chemicals, you know, in this chemical war that we've been fighting for four years or whatever, uh actually occurred. So um yeah, I was gonna see if um anything else came from that. I remember truck watch was inside the truck and we weren't supposed to be in the truck. Uh and he was inside the truck, and that's the only reason he didn't get hurt was because he was in there. Um yeah, that was one of the things. Oh, and they ended up making us wear mop, or at least did we ever have to wear the mop gear, or did we just have to we had to wear the gas masks, but we had to have all the mop suits in the trucks with us, right?

SPEAKER_06

So there's two pieces to that. So there were there was after that attack, yes, there was for a period of time we we were required to have more stuff, but there was another mission earlier where we went north of the river because we were told that there was something and we went in mop gear. We were in like uh we had the pants we had the pants and the boots on, jackets off, but yeah, like yeah, we were we were ready to so that was two that was two separate times, but I don't re uh we didn't wear our gear, but I remember we wore our our gas mask on our hip a little bit there for a stretch.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that was terrible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so in May right before that, the gas shell attack on Hurricane Point was June 8th. In May, right before that, there was a sarin gas shell that was part of an old cache that was used as an IED on an army convoy just south of Ramadi. And I thought it was your platoon. I could be wrong. It was definitely my platoon, but I thought it was our two platoons uh responded to that with full mop gear, gas masks, and everything, and we got stopped before we never made it out there. But that it was the call was over the radio that it was an active chemical weapon attack, and that you had to be ready for all that. And I was like, oh my god, I don't even know if any of this shit works. These mob suits, even though they're sealed, they're like 9,000 years old.

SPEAKER_03

They were in that connex box that was just existed, even though it was in plain view the whole time. And uh unlocked that thing and I was just like, holy shit, that's what this is here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, and all and we broke out all the test kits, and I was like, Oh my god, I I mean I learned how to use this at some point, but I don't know that I know how to, I don't know what the fuck we're gonna do I don't know what we're gonna do. It was great. Yeah, so a bunch of us were all about to go out there and just figure it out. Uh fortunately that didn't happen. And then there was the thing that he said where uh there was some rocket canisters that were found that were uh chemical gas rocket canisters, but they were empty. There was no rockets in them. And apparently you guys got the intel to go search something. You went in mop two posture or whatever that is, and uh and to go clean it up, but never again, nothing ever came of it. And then we got gas shelled and it renewed everybody's uh paranoia. Yeah, everybody's paranoia. And so we carried that shit around forever and then we ditched it, I think like July.

SPEAKER_06

Yep. Well we ditched it, but yeah, I think it was even sooner than that because I remember it was getting caught up in our vehicles, like we were having trouble dismounting, and so it was finally kind of uh, you know, you gotta pick your poison here, guys. You know, yeah. I remember I remember there was a couple times I could not get out of my truck.

SPEAKER_05

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Uh anything else come from that? I I don't remember. I just remember seeing the sensors that they set up everywhere, and then yeah, we ended up just dumping the stuff after a while.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. That was it. That was the only thing I ever heard uh as far as that went. Everybody was real paranoid because that that CS shell hit right next to your hooch and one hit the palace.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's right. There was two of them. Yeah, because it hit the uh their little like courtyard archway thing or whatever that was.

SPEAKER_01

Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Oh I forgot there was two of them.

SPEAKER_02

Um well, I mean, there's some other things I think I can remember, but uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Going home. I I think kind of just fast forward to going home and stuff. Um I remembered getting back uh to Kuwait and getting on a commercial liner. Well, okay, so yeah, there's a commercial liner. I remember there's a seabag detail, and I didn't get picked for it, and a bunch of other guys did, and they had to load that whole plane with every single seabag. And I think there was another company, right? Wasn't there two

Coming Home And Feeling Safe Again

SPEAKER_03

of us, two companies on the same plane?

SPEAKER_06

I might I don't remember.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, uh, so then yeah, it was just weapons company. Um, those guys came up and sweaty as hell, but they gave them the upper class uh seating for it. Uh-huh. I remember and I was like, damn, dude, I wish I would have been on that working party. But uh so I remembered it's a Bruno Mars song, like the one that made him famous. It was and that was like the first like update to uh real life that I remembered hearing on the plane where I plugged in my little headphones and I could hear that song playing. I was just like, uh yeah, I can't remember. So whatever first song it was he played that made him famous, I remembered hearing. I was just like and then uh like Wolf Mater said, like he's just like, let's go home, and then he just guns it and takes off. And it was a non-stop flight, right? We literally flew over the fucking North Pole right into March Air Force Base and landed. It was like the middle of the night, and they bust us over to Camp Pellenton there. Uh yeah, and then just this big all these signs and all this stuff, and I was just like, I was like, yeah, cool. It's like nice to be back home. Dude, everybody left. We were assigned our our rooms and stuff, and uh my family couldn't make it out. And I remembered there was a phone because I didn't have a cell phone, there's a phone trailer right next to the PX. And just like fucking Iraq, I just go into the phone trailer, and there's this bitch that who hates that she has to like help a customer who I'm like, yeah, help me uh I call my fucking mom from a phone trailer in Camp Pendleton, San Mateo, just like I did in Iraq, and be like, hey, I'm home, I'm all safe. And I just I look back at that going, I don't remember what I did because I wasn't old enough to drink. I I didn't know anybody. I just hung out and did jack shit. I was just like, I was like, fuck, dude, that's pretty depressing as hell. But uh like I was just PFC man. I didn't I didn't know any better, man. I was just like happy to be back. I remembered I remembered those barracks. So you'd sit in there to take a shit and it was all sil cinder block walls. And I remembered all the time in Iraq, you're sitting there in the Port of John's with sam with sandbags around you thinking, oh crap, man, am I gonna get killed by a mortar taking a shit? And sitting in the cinder block walls, just putting my hand on the walls, going, ah, this is nice, dude. I ain't nothing gonna hurt me. And here I'm surrounded by rooms and brick walls and shit. I can I can spend all day in here. I was just like, I was like, is this PTSD? Or we're like, what is this?

SPEAKER_00

That's a weird version of it, but it's awesome. I'm safe in the shitter.

SPEAKER_03

Those guys that come at Outposts, man. I was just like, dude, this is a whole nother level. And uh uh yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I I look at what we went through, I look, I look at the guys that come at outposts, and I'm like, I'm like, we're in the same place, but I also feel like it's two different levels, and uh I don't know, just uh I know it's not the right thing, but there's just a lot of comparisons, and uh so that's why I was why I was like hesitant to kind of come on and talk about it was because I was just like, you know, dude, like a lot of people did a lot of shit, and I don't feel like I did as much as them, but at the same time, I'm like, you still did a lot, and there's a lot of good memories, and that and that's what wanted me to bring on here is just like just to just talk about literally the fun memories because I really don't talk about it with other people because uh it's not like oh it's gonna like trigger me or nothing. It's just like I'm like, they don't want to hear war stories, they don't wanna, they don't wanna or they're not gonna understand it fully, you know. It's like they're not gonna understand how fun it was or how stressful it was, you know. Um uh so yeah, I I've been doing it more, talking with more guys in the National Guard and stuff about it. Um but yeah, I figured this would be a good opportunity to kind of get clarification on things because like I said, as a PFC dude, like everything was through a fucking different lens and through a skid. A lens cap cover? Yeah. That's hilarious. That yeah, if nothing like puts combines the two that I'm trying to say, it it would be that analogy for sure.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So if you don't, if you don't mind, I have one, I I don't think it's I don't actually think it's embarrassing, but it's it's one of my uh I have a couple very specific memories of of of us, you over there. And one of them that does um is one of the more amusing ones is and I think it was you, we were out at the I feel like it was at the police station, but maybe not. It was somewhere near there. Yes,

Raids, Small Mistakes, And Dark Humor

SPEAKER_06

and and you stepped into like it looked like it looked like regular ground, but it was like crusted over, and it was some sort of cess pit. Yeah, and you went all the way up to your hip in this just nasty shit water, and it just like all night.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yes. So, okay, yeah. So I looked at it, I'm like, yeah, there's nothing, and it's like a little small pothole, and I'm just like, yeah, I'm just gonna take a like a full step into it, and next thing completely up to my hip, upper, well, past my knee, and I just sat there like you fucking what an idiot. And then someone says, says, What the fuck do you think you're stepping in? And I was just like, oh fuck, and I just get out and realize there was a fucking, you know, what is it called?

SPEAKER_06

The the cesspool. It was a cesspool, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I was just like, and then I sat there on the top of the fucking OP, just hoping I'd get sniped.

SPEAKER_06

With your stank legs sitting there.

SPEAKER_03

They're all night long going, if this is the night we get in a firefight, this is gonna be it, you know. Of course it is, and uh yeah, I remember getting back and just taking off that and hosing it out and stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_06

Didn't it even stain your leg some too, if I remember correctly? Like I rem I my memory is it was it your leg was actually stained a different shade.

SPEAKER_03

But I I I'm I'm sure the uh camis were were stained in some way.

SPEAKER_06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I think that was I think that was also the time that um that we were there and we got called out for something. And um those Iraqi police all piled into the back of one of those uh trucks, and the driver took off before everybody could get seated and threw literally everybody out of the back of the truck, taking off, except for the guy that was standing up in the in the pendle mount. And uh he drove like 20 feet before he realized that he dumped like something like eight guys out of the back, and they all came running after the truck and piled back in. And I remember just being like, fuck, we're gonna go out and try and do something with these idiots.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Uh some of those raids were the coolest, funnest things I ever did. Uh the way set up that outer cordon that would be set up, and we you would drive right past those guys, and then um you drive, you see the inner cordon set up, and then you drive, or you'd run past those guys, hop over the wall, and just kick the doors and clear the rooms. And I remember just sweating so much. I remember we found a bunch of RPG triggers in like uh bags of grain one day. Uh, and I didn't think anything of it. I'm like, we go do with these things, you know? Uh and it turns out like that's like the control mechanism, that's the reusable mechanism for the the RPG, so that's a big deal. And um I remember trying to search the bedding that they would stack up on the wall, and you'd think you could just pull that bedding off the wall, but it's so dense and so heavy, it was like it's like you couldn't you couldn't do it. You had to start at the top and start peeling it off piece by piece, and I was just little things like that. I was just like, damn, this shit's harder than it looks, man.

SPEAKER_06

So yeah, we ended up doing our our team ended up doing a lot of raids. We we were we got to do a lot of those. And uh my my my biggest memory of those raids is that they had an intel, uh an intel group would go through first and they would throw out uh a chem light bundle in front of the gate of the house that we were supposed to hit. Um and then that was how we that's how we knew where we like they would like because they would be, you know, they would be out with somebody else that was like fingering the place or whatever. Um, and then and then we would roll up, and then that's how we knew who to hit.

SPEAKER_01

My my favorite of those was when they used they switched it up because it was supposed to be a green chem light. They switched it and made it an IR chem light, but nobody told anybody. And so you we're I think I remember you guys drew drove and did like a U-turn and came back around. Yeah, and we could all see it because we were looking through optics, but like whoever was driving didn't have optics apparently.

SPEAKER_06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

And I was like, it's right there, it's right fucking there.

SPEAKER_03

It was great. I think go ahead. Um, wasn't there a time we had to ram the gate or like pull it off, something like that? And there's another time where we pulled up against the wall and we had to run on top of the roof to jump over it and stuff, unique stuff like that. It was always super fun.

SPEAKER_06

That I was uh that was uh that was another one that I I remember one of the times that we did that, I went over the wall, but I lost my footing going over the wall, and I just flipped myself over and I just landed on my back. And my job, like no one else was gonna go over the wall because my job was to go over to the gate and open up the gate. And I just remember lying by myself in the courtyard, staring up at the sky and having no breath because it completely knocked the wind out of me. And I having this conscious thought of being like, I'm so fucked if anybody's inside of here, because I can't do anything at this point because I can't, I can't even breathe. And I finally roll over and I slowly crawl over to the gate and I finally unlatch it.

SPEAKER_03

And so, anyways, isn't it crazy that like everyone you see? The professionals, right? The special ops guys on on TV and news or whatever. But in reality, man, like it is all fuck-ups like this.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It is just all like I am lucky more than I am good, and that's just still pretty damn good, right? I'm I train a lot, I'm pretty good at everything I do, and even at that higher caliber, I'm still fucking more lucky than I am good.

SPEAKER_06

And it's just Devin. That's that's all that matters. That's all that matters.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I mean, I'm a I'm a cop now and I say that every day. I'm like, I'm like, dude, we're you can be on your game ninety nine percent of the time, dude, and it's one percent that's all it takes, dude. So Yeah. Uh let's see. Yeah, I think I I think I hit on everything I really wanted. Nice now.

SPEAKER_01

But we've been gone for about two hours. That's good. And we can always have you back. I mean, that's you know. We've told everybody that. Definitely we can always do more, especially uh we don't plan to stop until until people stop talking, basically.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, and uh what I like is uh every time I listen to something else new, I'm like, oh my god, dude, I didn't think about that. And then that unlocks new core memories, you know, and I'm just like, I remember this, I remember that, and and uh do you guys remember but before I let you guys go? Um uh-huh, do you remember first Sergeant Ellis?

SPEAKER_01

I do her.

SPEAKER_03

Um became Sergeant Major Ellis. Correct, yeah, and we deployed again uh in 2006, like late 2006, and he was the only guy killed. Uh well, I can't say that because the so they split us up. We were on a Mew, two companies went back to Ramadi, and it was really frustrating

Later Losses And Who Gets Told

SPEAKER_03

because a lot of those guys who had made it through the first time ended up um getting killed or wounded on the second time, and I was like, that's not fucking fair, dude. But that's just the way um weapons company and then and another line company made it to Habania, and the only casualties we sustained there was Sergeant Major Ellis, uh, an interpreter and a uh Lioness uh Marine. And it was a vehicle control point. And I remember Wolf coming up to me going, hey, I I I heard a rumor that Sergeant Major was killed. I got so mad at him, I was like, fucking stop these goddamn rumors, dude. Um because I was stuck on base. Good and bad thing, right? I wanted to be out there patrolling, but I'd already patrolled in Ramadi. And I was like, now I was a mortar leader sergeant, and I was like, I got to shoot mortars in combat, which I was just like fulfilled all my bucket lists. So I was like, hell yeah, I did it as a rifleman, I did it as a mortarman. Um, but it was also it sucked because I was stuck on the base. Uh, but then um Sergeant Major gets killed, and he was just the nicest, coolest guy. And I was like, dude, he was retiring after that deployment, was my understanding of stuff. And I was like, this fucking place who you are, how long you've been here, whatever, like uh, and it and it was bullshit and it wasn't fair. And but uh Wolf man, I I got so mad at him for that, and then I don't remember if I ever apologized to him for it or not, but I was like, I was like, uh it was just the stress, man. It was like, don't spread these rumors, and then it ended up being true, and I was like, damn, that sucks. But uh yeah, man, it kept getting out kept getting after 2-4 even after we left and came back a whole nother year and a half later. So but you guys have plans of getting um line company guys on here at all?

SPEAKER_01

No, not not specifically, no. We our focus is weapons company. Uh, not that I don't think the line companies don't deserve it. I just I don't think I have the I don't think we have the rapport. Well maybe maybe Blake does. I I don't know that I have the rapport with most of them. I do with a few of them. And I think this works because we have a lot more interconnection with weapons company. I just don't think we do the line companies justice. I I I hope they could do the same thing, honestly. Um I think you said you haven't got all the way through unremitting uh quite yet. Right. Yeah, I at least in my opinion, I don't think Fox Company's story has been given any real justice. Um, but I do think Unremitting does a over-the-top fantastic job uh for golf and echo company. And uh is definitely the the it's the story for them. Uh I mean maybe some of those guys don't feel like it, but uh I think it's it's a very good depiction of what they went through day to day.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Yep, just just out of curiosity, man. So uh yeah, for sure. Um hit me up again in a while after after other guys have talked and uh I've listened to some other things, and if I feel like I've got at least another hour, uh I might reach out to you guys and be like, hey, there's some other shit I remember.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, dude, do it. Absolutely. Well, I got one last before you go. Uh we we try to ask this one uh to everybody as they kind of depart. Um so you did two times over there, like kind of thinking a little bit more about our first time. Um, but what what does this all mean to you now 20 years on? I mean, you've done you've done more, you stayed with the National Guard, but what do you what do you say about Rumadi of 2004? And it's what do you think of it?

SPEAKER_03

It's literally the reason I joined, right? Like

What Ramadi Means 20 Years On

SPEAKER_03

I said, I wanted to be a Marine since I was in sixth grade. And I saw the invasion happen on TV, and uh September 11th happened, and I was all too young, and my mom just remembered saying, Thank God you're too young. And I thought I had missed everything, right? And was super excited when I found out I was going to Ramadi. And um it even knowing it was just gonna be the SASO operations and then what it turned into, um I I I I wouldn't trade it for the world uh and the stuff that I was not so proud of versus the the experiences that I did gain and the progress that I made from it. Super grateful for every bit of it politically and like I don't know what what's the other word. I I like seeing where Iraq is at now, right? It's we always thought about it like this place will never be normal. I mean it's almost normal now, based on what you see on the news, you know. And that's once those damn uh locals decided to help us, everything changed. And that didn't freaking happen until like 2000 and what, 10 or 9 or something.

SPEAKER_01

Or maybe even later, I mean, fully, because they had to fight ISIS and that really cemented everything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I think none of that would have happened if it wasn't for us being there and and and doing what we did. And I don't know, hope hopefully it continues to become this uh uh focal point of like it wasn't for nothing, like they try to tell us it was in Afghanistan and all that other shit. Um it was for a purpose and it is ultimately it is gonna be a place where we can go visit and see ancient Bible history someday, you know, safely.

SPEAKER_04

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And uh yeah, I mean the the things I learned of the people I met and and stuff uh when trade it for the world and super super grateful for it. And god dude, every day I'm just like, how the hell did you make it through this? And I'll save myself when certain things come up when I remember certain things, and I'm just like, I don't know, dude, but you better not waste it. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Good deal. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_03

It's an awesome way to end. Okay. All right. Well, thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, it's good seeing you, man. It's it's uh it's been too long. We'll we'll we'll we'll need to make sure that we stay a little bit closer here.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm not on Facebook anymore, but I keep it because of stuff like this. Like there's a lot of military guys that I still keep in touch with, and that's about all I use it for.

SPEAKER_06

So yeah, I'm I'm about the same. All right, be well, friend.

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_06

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