Endurance for One Moment More - David Silton (part 3 of 3)

Dave closes out the days in Ramadi when one unarmored truck, one hit, and one Marine leader’s absence changes the emotional temperature of the whole platoon. We also talk honestly about what comes after, when you make it home with your family but your body still remembers and reacts like you haven't left combat. 

• Recounting late June and July contact and casualties
• What Sgt. Conde represented as a leader, mentor, and friend 
• The way grief shows up as rage, focus, and routine work 
• How constant contact blurs together and makes you numb 
• July 21 QRF memories and the ethics of firefights near a mosque 
• Left seat right seat missions
• Coming home with a new baby 
• Compartmentalizing for years and getting cracked open by a reunion
• Starting therapy, finding the right fit

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Transcript

Setting The Timeline Of Loss

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Well kind of moving forward, uh late June, that was when the uh sniper team uh was killed on June 21st. And I I if I remember correctly, it was Sledgehammer, Map 2, Map 3 went out there for that. Uh and then or no, I'm sorry, I think it was Rainmaker, Sledgehammer, and Map 2 went out there, maybe not Map 3. But you guys went out there later, and that was you were out all night. You you know uh this as well as I do, but you were out all night June 30th, and then you went out to the local you guys were on your way to or from the location uh out there by the arches where the where that building was, but it had been rigged and blown up the day prior. And then uh Condi was killed on July 1st.

SPEAKER_06 1:01

Yeah. I was pretty I was really pissed at the situation because he was in a high, he was in the at that time we've had upper-armored vehicles for a minute, and he was in the only truck that was not an upper-armored truck, and I really felt that that didn't need to come out anymore. Like it was not necessary to put people in that position anymore, you know, like we have enough trucks, we're good, just don't use that one. Like it would be nice to have one more, but we don't why take the risk, you know, because I mean all the trucks had windows that had saved freaking shots coming through. Um I want to say I know a couple trucks got hit by RPGs and stayed together. Yeah, you know, yeah, and and none of the none of the trucks that weren't upper armored could do that. So I just felt like it wasn't necessary anymore. So when he got hit, I remember a stopping, and it was kind of a shit show because it wasn't just him hit, I want to say uh Knackers was wounded also, had a pretty large piece of shrapnel on the face. And and it was very discombobulated, and you know the fact that we went so long without any severe casualties is is crazy. Um and and the and the other so sorry to back to our first second. No, please do Condi was when he was shot, and again, like it wasn't a through and through small wound, it was the wound came, the bullet came in and knocked a a fucking size of a cell phone patch of flesh off his back shoulder.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 3:15

And after three days, I remember him crying in anger because he was like, I can't lift up my arm anymore.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 3:26

And I'm like, hey buddy, we're we're good, man. Like, you need to get healthy. You know, at first I remember people talking, talking to him to tell him they're like, go home, and like you did your job, and he was like, fuck that, I'm not leaving. Like, you you can't make me. I'll I'll heal up in a couple in a in a

Why One Unarmored Truck Matters

SPEAKER_06 3:45

week and I'll be good. And I remember talking to him one time and just being like, bro, like we got it, man. You need you are no good to us with one arm. Like, you you need to be healthy. You pushed through for three days, we got through the thick of it. Now get healthy. And I know it absolutely killed him because it like I said, like he was a an absolute warrior, and he he exemplified what it was to be a fucking marine leader. Um and so when when he got hit, you know, it rattled a a lot of people, you know, and again, it was our first our first casual like our first casualty, like serious casualty.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

I don't know. I felt like and I know maybe you guys didn't understand the depth of it, but I felt like Cummings was your first big casualty because he was shot through and through on the chest. Yeah, and I didn't I didn't expect him to ever come back, but he came back two weeks later.

SPEAKER_06 4:51

I totally forgot about that. Yeah, yeah. You know, I again not to take away from Cummings' injury, it just you know, if you think about you know pieces of of our platoon, not that Cummings wasn't important and not that but Connie was a a uh a not just a leader, but like he was uh uh kind of like a the pulse to our platoon, right? You know, um and you know because Connie was there before uh Williams and Lachard. So Connie kind of you know it was kind of his platoon in the way I always look kind of looked at it because he kind of set the tone for how we were, you know, and so when he got hit, I remember us loading back up and and taking him to I think combat outpost and us carrying him in, and and again, I I I didn't I thought it looked I was like I don't think I I felt that he wasn't gonna make it, but I didn't say I didn't say anything because there was a lot of people like he can make it, he can make it, you know. If anyone can make it, Condi can like and he had just I want to say he had just come back to us not you know not too long before before that and um I remember getting you know he left they they you know airlifted him out and we went back to the hooch and I was just like ra like I hadn't felt it before, but like just rage. But not outwards. It was just like it like inside, just so angry, and everyone was dealing with it in their own way. And I was like, alright, we gotta I gotta get we gotta get the trucks ready because we're gonna go back out. And I went out and I grabbed grabbed Condi's gear and washed out the trucks and got ammo and got them all ready, and I remember going to the headquarters hooch and they're like, hey, here's Condi's gear, and they're like, What the fuck are you doing? And I'm like, we gotta be we gotta get ready to go.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Sorry.

SPEAKER_06 8:12

I just thought we had it.

SPEAKER_04 8:14

Get ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

That's true. Of all the things, uh, you're spot on there. He wouldn't have wanted you to spend a minute. Yeah. Which which is funny because I can't speak for everybody, but uh I mean even 22 years later, still think about that dude every day. So yeah, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_06 8:51

I mean I I feel blessed. I think everyone probably feels the same way. But because he was like a very insightful person, you know. Um there's not a whole lot of people out there that you'd want to emulate or really seek guidance from.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 9:29

Because you're like,

Rage After Condi Gets Hit

SPEAKER_06 9:30

oh, you don't know what the fuck. I mean, honestly, I mean, look at most of the guys we served with, like, you're you're not taking a lot of life advice from a lot of these individuals. I mean, I I I love them all to death and I would do anything for them, but life advice is not something I would seek um for most of them. But Condi was not one of those, you know, he was very insightful um and wise uh way beyond his years, you know. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

And he he could go from this is a memory specifically of me and you and Condi sitting in the back of the fucking hooch smoking. And uh he could talk about anything. He could talk about literally anything, but I remember specifically we were talking about the history of the Middle East and him being like, all right, Judea, Jewish, Israel, and like he was like going through all of it, like drawing shit in the sand, and like it it was like it was the deepest marine conversation you would ever had with a bunch of 20-year-old idiots. Uh but it was good, man. It was good. He was a very deep thinker, and at the same time a constant joker. Uh oh yeah. Always telling fucking hilarious stories and hilarious jokes. And and then, yeah, and then a great Marine, a great leader, and and just funny. I don't know. I don't know. There's not an easy way to describe he just he uh he had a high amount of charisma, and people gravitated to him specifically. Staff NCOs, officers, it junior enlisted all, like it was it, everybody enjoyed him.

SPEAKER_06 11:25

And you know, you know, some people have the ability to sit there and just listen. I'm not one of them. Um but Condi he could, and and not only that, but when he spoke, it was it wasn't nonsense. You know what I mean? It it it it was it was good information, and and it was something like if it came out of his mouth, I took I could take it to the bank. Like it was just yeah. So so his his loss hit, I know hit really, really hard, you know. Um I I can't say there's many guys in the unit that didn't feel that they were very that they were not, they were all very close to him. Um I I think everyone had a connection and I again that speaks to him being able to connect with everybody, you know, you know, even the and again we had plenty of guys that could just find a way to get in trouble or do something wrong. But he even had a way to connect with them, and it again it was you know, it and he wasn't the type of guy that was just like, oh, this is my squad, and that's all I'm worried about. He was he was there for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

No, I and I didn't again, I didn't live in the barracks, so I didn't know some of the barracks stories, but he I guess he was snatching up 81s and doing like room clearing with teaching some of the junior 81 guys how to clear rooms. Like that's not typical. That you know it makes sense to us because we knew him, but it it that's just definitely not typical behavior. People usually had their their group, their squad, their clique, their whatever. And he was everywhere, he was everywhere all the time.

SPEAKER_06 13:18

All the time, yeah. So hit his loss was a was a huge was a huge hit. Um and I I again I think you know losing Savage, that sucked, you know, and again, you always feel kind of closer to the guys that are you're right embedded with, you know, but you know, they all they all hit and which I you know it was very amazing that through everything that we went through, that our company left with so few losses on the battlefield.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Um it's miraculous to be completely honest. Yeah, out of we were in all the heavy fire fights. I mean, anytime Echo, Golf, Fox were in too big of a fight, we went out. Yeah. And and so it's incredible that we didn't have more KIAs. Yeah, and even more wounded and even more grievously wounded individuals because we don't even have that many, like I mean, a lot of us have injuries, don't get me wrong, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

We have probably oh, I

Who Condi Was To Everyone

SPEAKER_01 14:45

don't know, 10 that I can count right off the top of my head of life-changing injuries, you know, eyes, eyes taken out, that kind of stuff. Not being able to walk right for a while, multiple surgeries, those kind of things. People who had to be on breathing tubes or tracheostomy, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_06 15:00

Was it was it Warth and Knackers and was there one more that was actually sent home? Uh there's Fingelsberger. Oh, Regelsberger, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Hurley, home Hurley.

SPEAKER_06 15:16

Okay.

unknown 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

So definitely we had some, but I mean but but when you think about the nine months that we were there, you know, or whatever it was. The it's we should have had way more. I mean, the number of the IEDs that hit us that that didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_06 15:37

I mean, the like, and especially the fact that like Echo Company, we knew how hard they got hit, yeah, and golf company how hard they got hit, and it was just like, and again, a lot of theirs is dismounted. I mean, and again, you know, they had that one guy that was relieved of command, you know, uh, and that plays into it, but just it's amazing that as many engagements that we had, and it felt really and again, that's why I feel like it's such a blur and they kind of blend because it just it just starts you just start to get numb because it's just it's it's always it's it's happening all the time.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yep, right. Yep. Well, uh last big one that I know of for sure. Now there are multiple small gun fights for your platoon, it seemed like they were always in contact one way or another, uh in smaller engagements. But almost uh like your revenge fight, uh to put it, I mean, maybe not a good way to put it, but uh July 21st was when golf company was coming one way down Michigan, the command element was going the other way down Michigan, uh some guys on foot, some in vehicles, but then they started moving a little faster, and they got they had a big IED go off by Saddam's mosque. And you guys were the first out response to your QRF that day, and you got into a is when Oliver North was there and he videotaped everything. I remember a very wonderful piece of video footage of you running directly down Michigan while you can see the bullets hitting the ground, which I think is hilarious, and you're running with a map in your hand and like yeah, down the middle of the street.

SPEAKER_06 17:22

Yeah, like you know I I'll be honest, I during most of that time, and and again, uh not not not uh not being macho at all, but I I wasn't scared most like I I really wasn't scared of of anything. I I just it it never even when I when our truck got hit when I when I got hit their time, I just I wasn't scared. Like I knew like hey, I'm gonna do my job and whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. It wasn't until like the left seat right seat I was fucking petrified. Yes, yeah, cu the because my daughter was born. I I knew my my wife had her, and when you're doing that thing, I was fucking petrified. That that was the only time I can know. Like I was scared to death. The rest of the time I I just wasn't scared. Like and I don't know if that's just stupidity. Um it's probably probably some of that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

No, no, because I I identify with exactly what you're talking about. There's there's a there was what resigned uh what you know, just I don't I don't know what it is, but all the way all the way through, you know, I don't remember ever being I remember thinking a couple of times like fuck me, why me, this is stupid, what you know, like this is stupid, but not being afraid, like the way that you're talking about it. But I agree that left state-right seat bullshit. I was more scared during those times than ever that entire any any any like all of it combined together. Like going out with those bastards was terrifying.

SPEAKER_06 19:13

Yeah. Uh I was and again again, I think it's because we didn't have a lot of our guy, a lot of the guys I knew I could depend on.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 19:22

Um, and it's the way that some of these guys were just they weren't doing anything that we told them, and it was just like, oh my god, like we're this is where I'm gonna fucking I'm gonna I'm about to go home and now I'm gonna die. Like this is bullshit. You know, like uh and and I still to this day, I still Gordon was the machine gunner uh on one of those missions, and it was at night, and we got into a firefight with doing that left seat right seat at night, and uh someone popped like uh uh one of the insurgents popped a uh um a flare? A flare or a loom or something, and I I he was yelling at fucking Gordon. I'm like, Gordon, fucking shoot that fucking thing. And Gordon took out his 9 mil and first round out of his fucking 9 mil shot that thing out of the fucking. And I was like, that was fucking awesome. Like that was another one of those just like really cool fucking things that happened. Um but back to what you're saying, July 21st. Uh I was that when the the CO was out there, and the battalion CO and all that. Yeah, yeah. And and they were and it was like like wow, like and they were they were fighting right beside us, and it was that was that I think it was fucking Kelly. He started just fucking shooting the fucking mosque, and I was like, bro, that's so not fucking right. Because again, I I I constantly was like, oh, they're you know, that's their culture, it is what it is, and and it's like I don't know. I looking back, I'm just like, oh fuck it, you know what I mean? Yeah, uh and did they make entry into that mosque?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

So they did on that day, and but not all the way into the main chamber. The uh again, I can't speak for Kelly, but there was a target in there because you guys did catch uh contact from one of the minarets, and so that's not not completely unfounded, but they did go into that minaret and clear. Uh somebody actually went up the stairs and and brought a guy down with an AK.

SPEAKER_06 21:33

So yeah. Uh and I don't so there was, I don't, it was a I think it was around that time we were doing an escort leaving combat outpost, and it was a really big uh caravan of of of trucks. It wasn't just our trucks, it was also seven tons, and yep, it was a whole bunch. Sleeping combat outpost, and I remember I was the last vehicle, and I

How Few Losses Still Hurt

SPEAKER_06 22:05

didn't have reposo with us. It it was, I'm pretty sure it was vigil, and I kept asking, like, hey, this is the route, this is the route, yep, yep, yep, this is where we're going. We're all going the same place. Yep, yep, yep, okay, good. And we start driving, and all of a sudden, all the fucking seven tons go right down that, like off to the right. And the next Hum B, I can't see. And I'm like, oh shit, like we're supposed to be going this way, and those trucks just went that way. And I'm like, do we go left? Because if we go left, that's where they had the big rotary, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

The roundabout, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:56

Yeah, and and I'm like, our base is that way, like we're going, we have to go left to go back because we're supposed to be going back to base or junction city, like that's the way to go, not that way. Like, I don't know where the fuck that is. And it was just all the seven tons, so I didn't see anyone, and I'm like, which way do we go? And they're like, which way do you know? I go, I know this way. So we start flying down, and I'm and this isn't an upper arm or Hum V, I'm going as fast as this fucking thing can go. Nice, which wasn't terribly fast, yeah. Um, and all of a sudden, a bunch of those fucking orange and white taxi cabs blocked the road at the roundabout. And I'm like, I'm not stopping, and they're all screamed. Like, uh, I think it was Gordon and Vigil were like, don't you fucking tear stop? And I those fucking cars so fucking hard. We flipped one of the fucking cars and fucking bodies went everywhere out of that fucking car, and we just kept fucking flying. And um, and Gordon's like, I think you killed some people, and I was like, they shouldn't have gotten the way, man. Like, we weren't gonna stop because I I'm thinking like they're trying if we stop, we're gonna get captured.

unknown 24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:22

Because there's way too many people out there.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:25

And I remember getting back, and one of the um one of the one of the the mechanics was so fucking pissed because I fucked up the the push bar.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:41

And I was like, dude, we almost fucking died. And me and Gordon and Biggle and everyone's like, you guys are so full of shit. I'm like, no, I swear to God, we almost fucking died. I was so fucking freaked out because I was like, we could have got captured, like all my in my head, all the baddest shit that could happen, but but uh but yeah, then we then like it wasn't you know, then with the um the the left seat right back to that. I'm sorry. Uh yeah, no, that's that was that was the most terrifying shit I've ever experienced. And on top of that, I was pissed. I think was was Drake with us.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Uh I mean Drake was with our unit. I don't know if he was in the left seat, right seats, but he I mean he would have been. He was the platoon sergeant for map one.

SPEAKER_06 25:34

Um, I don't know if it was him or it was Rapazzo. I was so pissed because I was like, I I think I was the only guy that was my that was wife was pregnant, was having a baby, and they were getting ready to pick people to go home early.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:49

And I was like, bro, my wife is having a baby like now. Send me the fuck home. Like, we're done. And they wouldn't send me. I was so fucking angry, so pissed. Because I was like, my wife's gonna have to have my fucking daughter by herself.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:10

I mean, her dad was there and everything was fine, but I was fucking I was I was pissed.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:16

That was and again, it was around that time we were doing the friggin' lefty rights seat stuff, and oh man, I was so fucking terrified.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Well, and that I was the lefty rights seats was unique in another way, too, right? We had been seeing like April was this one kind of enemy, right? They some of the guys had military training, but mostly it was just regular dudes jumping in the middle of the road, shooting an AK, and like you were like, okay, whatever. Come like July, we started seeing more trained fighters, so there was like sniper fire and more accurate RPG shots and all that stuff. Those motherfuckers that were there in September, the black pajama dudes, they were not only good shots, but no fear, crazy as shit, running straight at the top. Yeah, exactly. Running straight at the tucks, throwing hand grenades. Like I I've never fucking seen it, I hadn't seen anything like that the whole deployment. That was a whole different level of different, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:18

Yeah, so you know, I was just like, we need to get the fuck out of here. These guys don't know what they're doing. And again, I remember them saying, like, hey, our our command told us not to listen to you guys. Yeah and and I was like, what? I was like, dude, our guys are straight fucking warriors. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. But they're like, and they're like, no, man, like they said you guys are all like fucking cowboys, and I was like, cowboys that are fucking still here, but you know, I I was so like so fucking put off by that, and I was just like, and I I almost felt bad. I was like, you guys do not know what you're in for. I I had I don't

July 21 QRF And The Mosque

SPEAKER_06 28:05

like I think because of the casualties that our battalion took, everyone thought we were like incompetent.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yep. Yep, that that's uh I I think that's a a reasonable estimation just based on what other people have said for sure.

SPEAKER_06 28:22

Yeah, and and and I I remember my wife because I remember one time I I want to say when Fallujah was fucking kicking, because it was Fallujah was like around the exact same time.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Exact same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:35

And I remember like at one point we were gearing up to go up to Fallujah, and and I remember my wife was like, Well, Romani doesn't seem like it's that bad. They're always talking about Fallujah, and I was like, and I remember like, is is this not bad? Like, maybe this isn't that bad, maybe we're just really fucking pussies or something.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Like, it's the true definition of being gaslit, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 29:08

And I was like, but like I, you know, I hearing some of this, and again, not not to throw any shade on the guys that were dealing with Fallujah, but it just seemed like a completely different element where it's like, you know, you hear like, oh, they surrounded the city and basically told everyone if you're a you know a fighting aged male, you can't leave. Everyone else, women and children, get the fuck out, and then they kind of surrounded the city, didn't let anything out, and then every once in a while, any mission they ran a mission inside the city that they would get attacked, but it was like they knew they that's what they were going in prepared for, you know, where you know we're on a Sunday drive to Combat Outpost and drop something off, and all of a sudden we get contact. It's I just felt very and again, Follution was smaller, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:59

It was it's technically smaller, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Footprint and by uh population, both.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Like how much smaller population-wise?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Not considerably, it was 300,000, I think, but it was still smaller. It was definitely it was definitely less spread out.

SPEAKER_06 30:15

Yeah, so I was just like, man, maybe maybe this is not that bad, you know, and like wow, Fallujah must be worse, you know, like and just like trying to mentally think about you know what we're dealing with, you know. Um yeah. But yeah, I just I couldn't wait to at the end, I was like, get me the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Well, I mean, that's that's a good segue. What was it like coming home? I mean, you had a new daughter, you had uh you had a lot of things to come home to.

SPEAKER_06 30:52

Um so uh first of all, uh you know, being a police officer, um dealing with mental illness in our country does a terrible job now dealing with the shit. Um at that time it was even worse, which is hard to imagine, that they had as little as little as we were prepared for what we were getting into combat-wise, we were less prepared to deal with the mental aspect of it. Because again, it can't be healthy the fact that you feel numb to mortars coming in and gunfire and blood and people being blown up and shot, and you're just kind of like all right, let's go at it again, and just kind of that can't be healthy, but it's what's necessary, and then to try to you know get back and deal with that because I remember at some point like talking to like a chaplain and him talking, and I'm just like, you have no fucking clue what the fuck you're talking about. And I remember when we marched back, you know, we dropped off the weapons, of course. We gotta drop those off at the at the armory first, and then we're marching in. I remember marching by my wife, and she can't see like she didn't recognize me. For one, I don't know about you guys, but when I was over there, all I did was work out because there was it was either watch movies, fuck around outside the hooch in one of the many games that we would figure out how to play or that we had available to us, or I I would go to the gym or run. And so I actually lost. I mean, I think a lot of people lost weight because of how fucking dude, I didn't want to eat the food, yeah, you know, and and the food was terrible, but like but I was eating good, I was eating tuna and I had protein, you know, shit stuff that my wife sent over that I was drinking, so I was getting in good shape, and I get incredibly dark with a lot of sunlight.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:29

Like, let me put it this way. Uh, when I first started on the police department, people came in asking for the black officer, and they're like, we don't have one. They were asking for me. Uh so you know, and and and and again, I'm not saying a white person come asking, I'm saying black people saying, Hey, can I speak to a black officer? Like, I remember pulling up to a lady, we have an ice cream place here in town, and uh the woman walked up and she's like, Can I talk to you for a minute, son? And she was an older, like she's probably like 65, 70 years old, and I'm like, Yes, ma'am, how can I help you? And she's like, It's so nice to see a nice black boy on the police department. And I was like, Yes, ma'am. I thought I I thought I was being gaslit, but you know, I but I again I I get I can get really, really dark. But so when we walked, when we marched by my wife, she didn't recognize me. Um, and so we break formation, I walk up, and my wife kind of like like looking at me and then you know, realizes it's me, and she's holding my daughter. There was actually, and we still have it, there's a newspaper clipping because the news was there on our return and stuff, and they took a picture, and I'm sitting there holding my daughter, and I have my son Tyler, I have him in my other other arms, and you know, it was a group that was a great homecoming. Um, and I was super, super excited and you know, uh glad to be home, but I was not prepared in the slightest to deal with the emotions that came after. And like the good thing is, is

The Convoy Turn And Taxi Cabs

SPEAKER_06 35:20

I drank so much in Okinawa that I didn't I was very turned off of alcohol after that, after Oki.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:31

Cause because like I said, being there for a year, and I can honestly say the only time I wasn't drinking was when we were on ship. So it was a ridiculously unhealthy level of alcohol when in Oki. So when I and again, I kind of trans mentally I kind of transitioned because I didn't like how getting so shitty and not being in control because being in Iraq and being a driver, I was in control, you know, as I think that was one of my you know mental defense mechanisms, like hey, I I am I'm in control, you know, where we go and what we're doing, so I I'm good. Um so when we got back, I was kind of rudderless because we you know we kind of went on leave like right after we got back, right? It was pretty insane.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Um six days, seven days, something like that. It was very, very quick.

SPEAKER_06 36:43

So um, and that was like it was like just they gave us 30 days, I think. It was just gonna take a month.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

That's correct. Yeah, trash can leave, they didn't charge you for it.

SPEAKER_06 36:55

Yeah, so I I remember one again. I my my wife was amazing, and she was like, Whatever you need, just tell me. And and I remember a couple times breaking down, like, I don't know what I need, I think I just need space, you know, and I would go for drives for hours, you know, and go sit in a parking lot and just smoke like a pack of butts in like an hour, like just mentally trying to like process some of what was like the feelings and emotions that I didn't know what to do with. And again, like and like you know how society talks about toxic masculinity and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:41

I don't think anyone understands that that's the pull yourself up by your bootstraps isn't what's the toxic part, it's the fact that our egos get in the way and we don't talk about our feelings and we don't discuss what our problems are, and you know, and that's always looked at at like a sign of weakness, you know, and and again, like you know, I do not come from a perfect home, and you know, I dealt with a lot of types of issues, and you know, which kind of gave me a little bit of thick skin to deal with some of what the Marine Corps had to dish out, but you don't you when you don't know how to process these feelings or uh or these emotions, they don't come out in good ways. Um and you know, I had some really bad habits of like driving around like trash in the road. Like I remember almost getting in several car accidents because I would see something on the side of the road, and I would just yank the wheel to the other. My wife was like, What are you doing? And I'm like, There's something on the side of the road, I gotta get away, get away from it. And and you know how in in California they have all these like little metal brakes in between the road that it could expand and contrast, you know, because of the heat, so they don't get tons of cracks. Well, when giant semi-trucks drive over them, it's freaking loud, like it makes a large sound. And I I remember it was one like one of the first few days we're home, we're sitting in a uh uh fast food drive-thru, and the drive-thru's like right by one of those roads, and the truck goes over it, and the loud the sound was so loud, I literally like dove in the back seat to where my kids were to like to protect them. And my wife was like, what the fuck was that? And I was like, I don't, I don't know, you know, so you know, I I took a I took a lot of drives and time by myself, and my wife was you know, she voiced her concerns a couple times, and I was like, I don't know what to do with this stuff, and she's like, you need to talk to somebody, and like I did, and they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. And then eventually I just crammed it down over that 30 days and just locked it in a box, and it sat there for quite a while, and every once in a while, you know, you have the occasional I think when we first moved back to New England, remember the movie Hurt Locker? No, not Hurt Locker. No, no, no, not Hurt Locker. What was that one with Jamie Foxx where he was in the I think he was in like the FBI and then he went?

SPEAKER_01 40:52

I don't remember the name of it, but he they went in the Middle East and were investigating like car bombs and crimes and stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:58

Yeah, and I remember sitting there watching that movie, and my wife like looked over at me and I'm fucking bawling. And she's like, what's wrong? I'm like, I don't know, this is bringing back a lot of emotions. And and I remember like love loving that movie for that, because it like I don't know, I felt very disconnected from a lot of guys because I think that was I wasn't really a social media person, and I think Facebook was really the only one that was really out there at that time. I think that was like yeah, I I didn't even do my trick, I didn't even attempt to do that because way too many guys were getting in trouble with that shit. I was like, I don't think they're doing that. So um, but you know, even after I reenlisted and I ended up going to Quantico, uh, I worked there as a coach and a PMI

Left Seat Right Seat Terror

SPEAKER_06 41:55

and um ran the the ranges down there for a while until I got medically separated when I fucked up my knee. Um and during that time, you know, you're involved with people, and I was never really the dick measuring type because guys, some guys would tell their stories, and I'd be like, yeah, you know, yeah, I was in Ramadi, yeah, we got in some gunfights and kind of like left it at that. I really didn't again, I didn't want to unearth that box that I had shut, you know. I didn't and again, so got out and again had moments of where their feelings came up, but nothing bad. And I never turned to drugs or really alcohol. Um I definitely had some moments, but was able to get through them on, you know, without any repercussions or anything like that. Um then, you know, being now being a police officer for close to 20 years, um I've definitely experienced some things as a police officer, and again, some of that stuff you just kind of shove in a box, you know. You know, I think what they call it compartmentalizing.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Yeah, that's the official term.

SPEAKER_06 43:24

Uh so I've always said I'm good at compartmentalizing. I just kind of leave I put things in a box and I don't don't deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:33

Um, but then when we had our 20-year reunion, um that really ripped the fucking box, ripped it to pieces. Um, and that unearthed a lot, you know, because a lot of people are telling their stories, and and again it's one of the reasons, like I think there was a 10 year reunion, and I was like, I don't think I can go to that. And then they Did uh I think a sergeant's course at Quantico, I think they did something for Sergeant Condy or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Uh they named one of the buildings after him and put a memorial up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:11

So a bunch a bunch of guys went to that and I I I honestly I I w I couldn't deal with it. I couldn't do it. So I just didn't go. Um and then you know, my wife says she didn't let me go, but you know, I think she was trying to save me mentally for not wanting to to to deal with it. Um and then but the 20, I was like, I have I have to go do this. Um and I was like, oh it's been 20 years. I it it can't it can't be that bad. And again, it was I it was phenomenal to to be there, but but it definitely woke up some demons, you know. Um and again, uh it was great because it you know got to talk to uh Mr. and Mrs. Condi and talk to them about their son and give them some closure because again, I can't even imagine meeting them because how quickly that whole process happened for them. Not just losing their son, but getting to speak with anybody. Only a couple people talked to them.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:28

When it first when they first got back, but not not a lot. And um again, they they had the memorial where a couple people talked to them, but again, it wasn't everything. So um I know I spent some time with them, I know Latham did, I think we all did, uh, and kind of was able to fully let them know who their son was. And again, they knew who their their son was, but aside from them that they they didn't get the experience, and I think we shared that pretty completely, or as much as we could, and gave them some good closure to it, which was which was great.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_06 46:18

Um because you know, I I again I can't imagine losing a child, first of all, and second of all, losing a child to war and then not knowing what happened. Um over this last year now, right? It was last year that we did the reunion?

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Uh two years, twenty-four.

SPEAKER_06 46:39

Okay, so so two years of you know dealing with it. Uh you know, started having a lot of nightmares and issues and stuff like that, and finally um went to go talk to somebody. Actually, just I think next week is my second appointment.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

So good for you.

SPEAKER_06 47:02

Um gonna deal with that. You know, my my youngest knows what's going on. Uh, I just told him, and my wife knows what's going on. She knows.

Coming Home And Feeling Unready

SPEAKER_06 47:15

But you know, it's I don't know. It's still something you just don't I don't know what's gonna come of it. I really I hope I hope it helps. I I don't know how much it will.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

It it I've I've been going to people off and on for a while. And it's like uh it's kind of like working out, you know, it's where you can only do so much and you gotta make sure that you, you know, you gotta make sure you're doing what you're you know, be smart about it and stuff like that. But as you as you do it, it gets easier and easier to start handling some of the, you know, you'll you'll handle some of the easier softball stuff first, and then you'll progressively start tackling some of the other stuff. Um but it's a process. So it's awesome, awesome that you're doing that.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

The analogy that I've always give, well, because I work in the medical field, the analogy I always give people is it's a lot like dating, also. Just a I you're saying it's like working out, I'm saying it's like dating. Maybe it's like both. Uh but in the you're not going to get the perfect fit on your first date all the time. You may need to find somebody else, right? Like, you know, that this may be the toxic pick. You may need to find a better tick. Uh and it's it is about a match. And once you make that connection with the right person, it it really does make a big difference for something, right? For some things.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Well, uh and I'll I'll actually add to that in that it it's the person that you date first is probably the right person for you at that moment. But as you progress and you learn about yourself, that person doesn't make sense anymore. And so then you move on to you kind of protect and start dating somebody else because that's who you need in that moment. And so it's uh super super happy that you're doing it, man. That's that's uh that's uh it's a it's a big step. It's daunting, it sucks because you kind of have to you kind of have to sometimes be like, oh wait, I'm the problem.

SPEAKER_06 49:19

But uh well, I mean uh I mean for my entire marriage, you know, my wife, again, not in a too much of a push, but is always like, you should probably talk to someone, and I'm always like, there's no one that can understand what I've dealt with. I mean, again, like I, you know, and again, uh the guy that I started talking with, you know, he's like it all. He's like, it's not just that moment that has influenced you, it's your life that's in influenced you and stuff. So I'm like, I don't know if we want to unpack all of that, you know. Um, you know, but he's like it all intertwines with each other, and I'm like, I was like, okay. I was like, all right, well, you you got me. I'm here. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna try to do do this, but my wife has been pushing for years, and I'm just like, nope, there ain't anyone that can understand. I'll I'll be okay. Because I didn't want to take, I know, a bunch of guys taking stuff for like antidepressants and all that kind of stuff. And I, you know, I don't need any of that kind of stuff just because I I'm not never been, I'm never gonna kill myself. I have a very strong stance about you know suicide, you know, and I'm not real happy with society as a whole and how they've taken change suicide, the the way they look at suicide, where now we look like we pity the person before we kind of shun them. And I'm not saying it's good to shun them, but by changing how you look at suicide, it's almost made that an option. And I just I've never looked at that as an option, you know, or I don't think it should ever be looked at as an option, it's not an answer. Um, you know, uh so you know, so I just I never wanted to take those meds because I was like, man, like that's mind altering and stuff like that. And I kind of don't like drinking because it's mind altering. Like, not that I don't drink at times, like, but if I say I drink five times a year, that's probably a lot. Yeah, you know, yeah. So I don't it's not something I just I don't do, and if I do it, I I'm a I'm a I sip, I don't really drink because I just don't like that part of me, and I always thought that if I took something mind-altering, it would be a bad part as well, you know. So um yeah. So yeah, I'm I'm on that road to try to fix that. Like I'm good, but definitely need to sort through some shit because some of these freaking nightmares are getting kind of freaky, so I need to figure out how to deal with this better.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Well, dude, we feel like you're on the right path. Yeah, we've been going for three hours. Is there anything we didn't cover that you want to cover?

SPEAKER_06 52:29

Uh I I mean, strangely enough, over there, uh I would say I wouldn't not do this. I would have not I would have I've chosen to do this again. And I wouldn't have done it with anybody else. Um because it's made me who I am. So I as terrible as a a lot of it was, it was um an experience in itself. And I also had some really great times over there as well, which is odd enough because we had a lot of fun, you know, yeah, with you know, battle royale fights for fun, uh you know, in and in outside the hooch to, you know, um some of the you know playing volleyball and uh breaking jaws to playing volleyball because you're playing a little too rough. Um you know, to like playing dodgeball to walking out to go use the shitter and you see the flashlight going crazy in the shitter because someone's in there jerking off, and you're just like, that's disgusting. Um just uh it's it's it's definitely uh an experience. I I wouldn't change it all.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Nice. That's a great way to end it out, dude.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

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