Keep Them Alive - Michael Rakebrandt (part 2 of 2)

Part 2 with Navy Corpsman Mike Rakebrandt about the hidden weight a senior line Corpsman carries in Ramadi, from quiet BAS check-ins to making split-second calls that keep Marines alive. We also discuss what hits hardest on the way home: Gold Star families, survivor’s guilt, and a system that does not follow up when the war is over. 

• how BAS conversations keep doubt from spiraling 
• the homecoming moments
• talking with Gold Star families and answering impossible questions 
• missions that stand out, including Bug Hunt and House Party 
• Operation Traveler and keeping a badly wounded detainee alive
• friction between field medical care and medical staff 
• non-combat medicine that impacts readiness, from flu to abscesses 
• the Purple Heart curse 
• handoff lessons to the incoming unit 
• survivor’s guilt, anxiety, and feeling like two different people 
• the lack of meaningful post-deployment medical follow-up 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

This is part two with Mike Rakebrandt, Senior Line Corpsman for Weapons Company. Well, let's uh uh we'll lighten it up a touch. What did you what did you do to dock the dock? What did you do to blow off steam, dude? How did you deal with all this shit?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Make fun of Josh Fonzi. I had, you know, we had great guys. I would um I would go to BAS. I was to BS a lot just because I had to be,

Coping And Debriefing At BAS

SPEAKER_00 0:37

you know, you got like a foot in both worlds. So there was always like Chief Jardon was there, or Doc Cricket or Doc Summer was there, or somebody was there, uh Chief Carranko, and they'd want to like, you know, touch base on whatever was needed because it was still like there was still this big push for like you know, maintenance of records and all these other things and and all these other issues going on, or if there were changes to like the Casivac system or what was going on. So I was there constantly. So when I was there, you know, if you had something that was bothering me, if something was bothering me, I would speak to one of those guys and say, look, you know, I had this, I did this, but I'm not sure that that was the best decision. It could have been this or this or this. And whether it was Chief Jardon, uh Dave Carbonko, Doc Cricker, Doc Son, any of the ones you spoke to, it was always pretty much the same. Like, you did the best you could in the moment you had with what you had, you know, don't overthink it. You know, and it was always that kind of that was like almost like a like a low drum beat in the background in BAS, you know, and I think that helped a lot with a lot of these guys to kind of keep their heads in the game and keep themselves focused without having to feel like they were, I guess, constantly being criticized or under the gun in some way, you know, because it was always you guys did the best you could with what you had. Just keep doing what you're doing. So that helped a lot. And then, you know, coming home was um I don't think you unpack a lot of it there, right? I don't think what a lot of us did. Like, I think a lot of us we were just kind of like mission focused, so we were just kind of doing what we had to do. I remember when I'm sure you guys remember too, when we came home, we landed, right? March, we get on the bus, we go to the armory, we drop off our stuff, we march up to the grinder, and then there's all the gold star families, right? I think for me, that was probably the most um definitely one of

Homecoming And Gold Star Families

SPEAKER_00 2:16

the more painful moments of the whole thing, but also one of the most sobering moments because it made it real, you know. Seeing them like we've seen the body's always, we saw what we saw, but seeing them somehow makes it more like emotionally real, I guess is the best way to describe it.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

You know God bless them, God rest them all.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Did you well since you mentioned it, did you end up talking to any of the gold star families at all?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Yeah, uh Savage's family. Um Morrison a little bit, his family a little bit, um, actually all of them at one point or another, to some degree or another, you know, like I never I didn't have the um some of the guys Adam Clayton had to had a more hard time with that in Echo Company. He lost a lot of guys.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

So obviously men is a severe's is the corner with that that they lost, and like his family would come to the BAS on almost a regular basis after we got back. So we'd see them on a somewhat of a regular basis. And and uh, you know, I did get the questions here and there. You get people questioned here and there, like, you know, did they die well or how did they die or whatever? And like the answer for me was always the same thing, like I didn't feel thing. You've ever done it was it was quick, you know? Regardless of what the reality is, I don't think I would have ever changed that answer, you know, because you can tell somebody like, oh yeah, he later suffering, like you know. You know, but that was something I don't think I was actually I never thought about that prior to it happening. I never actually gave it any thought. It never occurred to me that that would be a question until it happened and it caught me off guard, you know, but so crazy. But yeah, they were um savages telling me obviously amazing people, all of them, truly amazing people. You know, his mom was is a phenomenal woman, but um Condi's dad is an amazing man, you know, you had all of them, Marsh's dad, all of them were just truly great people, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah, I I almost don't know where to go from here because I kinda I kinda want to go back to some of the missions, but you've kind of taken to a differ to a different spot, which I I actually find very fascinating as well, because I again I just like Blake said, I never thought about what I never thought about what you were doing. I I again I I just said that you knew voodoo and that you were bringing you would bring anybody back to life if they died. That that's what I believed.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

So it and like I said too, like you guys did it so fucking well that it just never occurred to me that there was anything like uh you you keep complimenting us of the professionalism, but seriously, the what you and what you instilled in the in in our docs think in me having Hinkle and Rudy and stuff like that, but Mr. Hinkle is one of the like it like you guys carried it so well, like it was just it was just a it was you know, like well, there's air to breathe and there's dock. You know, like of course, like there's no like of course they're gonna fix they're gonna take care of it. And uh and so that's a testament to the leadership that you provided to our our line or our docs that uh just never occurred to me that you guys had had more had more to carry than just that uh medic pack.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

There's a lot, right? There's a lot to it that's um it's like you guys, you know, everybody thinks like a marina, like oh a marina rifle shooting, and it's like, well, nope, there's actually quite a bit more to it than that, you know, there's a whole lot of other dimensions to the whole thing, but unless you know, you don't know. So yeah, but I it was you guys are phenomenal. But we I had I was so lucky. I had the I truly think I had the best corpsman in the battalion at the time. I really do. I think my guy, our guys were absolutely the best people that possible that could be there. I mean, he was all of them, the alcohol, all of them they were just phenomenal, phenomenal guys, and the not level of knowledge and just the ability to focus in, like lock in and get the get the work done, you know, no matter what was going on. Amazing, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Did you end up having, I mean, due to the way that and this is something that I had kind of more of an epiphany after having these conversations, is that we were supposed to have two docks per platoon. Um but due to our situation, uh we only had one dock. Um and then I think by that extension, you ended up rolling out with us a lot. Um and so I wasn't was that something that you were encouraged to do, or was it just like you knew that, hey, the you know, we really need two guys out there, so I'm gonna jump on these on these trucks as often as possible.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Absolutely. I wanted to be out there with you guys, you know. I wanted to be out there with you guys. If you guys are going out there, I wanted to be out there, you know, both to help support my guys and also you guys. Like my whole goal was like, okay, bring everybody home alive. So I wanted to be out there as much as I humanly possibly could to make sure that we could bring you guys back, no matter what. You know, that there was always ever the extra set of hands, that it wasn't, you know, that we always had somebody, you know what I mean? Like we always had as much as possible to throw at the problem. So yeah, I wanted to be out there as much as possible.

Why He Went Out Every Time

SPEAKER_00 7:17

I think I drill kept a while and nuts a little bit with that, but yeah. I wanted to be out there as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Well, I was gonna say because I I I I that is one of my memories of you, is just kind of having this realization is like, man, he's out here a lot. And I don't feel, you know, kind of and because I was told sometimes like as a leader, hey, stop putting yourself out there so much because we need to, you know, we need you. That's why we have, you know, that's why there's a rank system, buddy. Um, and I know that I remember thinking that about you too, of like, man, our our company Doc is out here a lot. You know, I would imagine he's also probably being encouraged to stay back a little bit more often than uh being on the front lines going toe-to-toe.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, it was um I think there were definitely times where people kind of some of the people in leadership kind of were like, you know, maybe you can you know slow down and step back a bit. But to me, it's like there's a whole lot of very, very smart people behind me that can definitely step into the role because I'm not, you know what I mean? And I've I thought it felt like to me it was like I was best placed, and you guys were uh you guys were uh the best place I could be. Like I felt like I told uh Chief Jordan one time, I'm like the safest place in the world I can be is with these guys in the street. Like there's no place safer, you know? There's no place safe for you guys in the street. I never felt more safe than that in my life, you know, and I I still stand for that to this day, though. I never I never worried about any of it. Ever. I never had to. You guys were so on top of it, it was like it was kind of funny to watch. Like it was almost you almost kind of felt bad for the other side because they really had no idea what they were doing, you know what I mean? Like, and just to get to watch the uh the world's most epic ass whooping go down again and again was pretty impressive. It was funny too, but pretty impressive, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Well, you kind of mentioned it. Do any missions stand out for you? Anything from it doesn't really matter, beginning, middle, or end, but I'm curious your perspective because you were you were out all the time. Like I yeah, I I every major, every major raid, every major mission, and obviously everything on in April, you were out there for everything.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah. April was wild, right? That was uh world's biggest slug fest, and they got the balls beat off them. So, you know, it was crazy. I

Bug Hunt And House Party Raids

SPEAKER_00 9:33

remember I remember hearing um I'm not sure how much it filtered down. I was I heard from somebody, I believe it was uh might have been Colonel Kennedy saying it at the at at uh headquarters when I was standing there by the VS he was talking. I thought it was him after this is after the fighting in April and everything, talking about I guess General, I think it was General Franks or Jill Calimasha, who had said to him, these six bastards won the Alamo. You know what I mean? Because these guys held Ramadi. Like nobody expected us to hold it, and we held it. So and I remember thinking that that resonated so deep with me. I was like, that is 100% true. These motherfuckers won the Alamo. You know what I mean? You know, because it was so many of them. But uh the two, I think probably I remember the most clearly, probably uh Operation Bug Hunt, that was April, after April, right when they uh when they ambushed me, went out and mopped up what was left. I remember being on top of that house with uh it was a roof of a house with Kellogg, laying on the roof and seeing two dummies running across what look like it was like tea patties or whatever out by the river, running across with their black pajamas on with the like you know, the black Toshini on, whatever with the with AKs, and going, Oh shit, look at that, and then lighting up and then Sakaki just you know, Kevin Sakaki uh he took care of those two. So they got they got they got destroyed. They got what they came for, they got to go me to the law, they got what they came for. But yeah, that was um that one stood out pretty clearly, just how like funny it was, you know. And then uh Operation House Party, just because I think we took down one of the most high value people we had in the on the plane cars at that time. You guys did it expertly, like this guy had legitimately like some of the best so-called security forces in the world, and you guys took them out like it was uh, you know, a turkey shoot. They didn't even stand a chance. It was boom, boom, done, gone. So bad, so good, so clean.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Which one was house party?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

I don't know that I was. Oh, what was his name? Um I can't remember the guy's name anymore. He was like uh Republican Guard general. He had, I think, ties to like the chemical warfare stuff.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was you're talking about the the raid for the Farhan brothers, then.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, that might be the one, yeah. That might be what it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I might be I might be mixing them up, yeah. It's been a while.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

No, that's okay. That's 22 years later. I don't expect you to remember anybody's name. I just didn't remember the name House Party.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

If I'm not mistaken, it was Operation House Party. Like they were uh until you said it.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, that's that is what we called it. So yeah, I I try to remember, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

It's like I'm trying to remember some of the names. Those are the two I remember most clearly. But just every day going out with you guys was always like it was just so impressive to watch, even just patrolling, right? Remember in the beginning we did the ID patrols and everything.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

A little harrowing, you know. Let's walk down this road until something blows up. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah, yeah. Well, I do have one uh rake brand story, and we'll see what it sounds like from your perspective, then. Uh the one I the one I remember is Operation Traveler, which was later in the deployment, it was early in August. And we were supposed to be going after Zarkawi, but instead we found his meager security forces, his I believe it was his aunt's house, but I could be wrong. It might have been his grandmother or something like that. And uh his driver was there, and somebody shot

Keeping The Driver Alive For Intel

SPEAKER_02 12:45

his driver through the thigh. But he was the one with the most amount of information. So the goal was to keep him alive at all costs. And the ODA team that came with us either didn't bring their medic or their medic wasn't interested in treating him, but you were the one that was tasked with keeping him alive. And uh by my memory, he died twice, but I'll let you take over there.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

So he was he was jacked up pretty good. They hit him um he had uh entry wounds and uh I think two entry wounds in like the top of his uh left eye, and then like three or four more right through like the pelvis, like the base of the pelvis and right at the pelvic floor, like right in that area there. And he was 100% bleeding internally. Like that guy was losing a lot of blood really quickly. But I mean, well, you would know, right? The pelvis can hold a lot of blood before you even know it's there.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

So he was definitely bleeding internally. He was not doing great. And uh it was crazy because like they they hit me and said, Oh, this guy's hit. Whatever we eat him alive. So you go back to the truck, I go to head in the house, whatever, and the ODA guys are like like almost like upset that I'm going in to treat this guy. And I'm like, You guys don't want the information. Like, you know, you want him alive with the information, I can care less, bro. You know, why are you mad at me? Like, I'm just gonna do my job. So go in, try and get him stabilized. Um the wound he wasn't bleeding much at all externally, which is like in his he was so distended, his gut was so so distended. I'm like, this guy's gonna die quick, like we gotta go now. So just try to drop an IV. I got the IV in him. We gave him um, he was being a pain in the ass. He was screaming and yawning and shit. So I think I give him like uh I gave him 10 milligrams of morphine just to shut him up and make him calm down. But he did, he kept going out in the back of the truck. He'd stopped breathing and stuff, so it was like trying to kind of get him to go back to breathing again. He stopped breathing on on the ground when I first got to him, and I got him back, we got him back breathing again. Then he did stop breathing again in the back of the truck, and then he he came back, and but he was he was completely a mess, man. I was I was surprised he lived, but I'm trying to remember her name that the army doctor that was the Casian over there on Camper Motti. She was uh what's her name? Nurse and doc there. You're phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Oh, any other day I could tell you her the you're talking about the uh blonde uh female female army captain at Charlie Matt.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah. Um yeah, she uh they got a hold. And I loved her, she was amazing. Their medics there were complete a-holes, yeah, but she was amazing. The medics were always talking shit to us, like to the corpsman, they would always talk shit. You know, I remember bringing guys in whatever, and they'd be like, Oh, this IV's no good. I'm like, okay, when you're getting freaking lit up and you're doing it and you're under fire, come back and talk to me. While you're sitting here eating McDonald's and fucking in PT gear all day, you don't get to say anything. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't have a lot of I really truly now think back to it. I think it was probably more of an insecurity thing for them because they weren't going out, because they weren't going on an experience, they were just receiving. Sure. But at the time it was like frustrating. It's like, bro, I'm dirty. I got somebody else's blood on me. I want to get the hell out of here. Just take this guy and let's go, you know. But that guy was jacked. That guy was jacked up. I mean, they hit him good, they got him really good. They got like, I think, three good solid shots, at least before in his um pelvis. And we were clearly he had two in his left thigh, and that left thigh was 100% broken. That femur was definitely broken.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah, so I remember you tourniqueting the thigh. They so the thing with him is he was he was going like upstairs or across the stairs, and basically they shot him. Yeah, yeah, they shot him from below. That's why he basically caught everything in the crotch.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Like he got it in the junk, yeah. Yeah, right there in the uh yeah. No, they got him good. They got him good. I remember he had um, I don't remember if it was, I think it was through his scrotum. One of the one of the shots, it was like it looked like a like a you know how a gunshot looked like a cigarette burn almost, you know. Yeah, so and he had it was through the the scrotum or whatever, but I remember I can clearly remember thinking like doesn't matter, you know, like that's superficially the ROM's inside. That's what I'm worried about. You know, it was like I can't get in his belly right here to open him up to to stop bleeds and shit. I'm gonna get him the hell out of here because we need uh he needs fluid. So yeah, just pumping them full of like just bolusing bag after bag of fluid in him and trying to keep him breathing until we got back to the to them. I'm like, here's Humpty, he's fucked up, fix him.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Well, you skipped the one part that uh was my favorite part was the second time he stopped breathing, he also shit all over you.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

I forgot about that. Yes, yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

You were like, motherfucker.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

I'm gonna black that part out now. There it is.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

You gave him a look gave him a good uh precordial chest thump, and uh he started breathing again. And we were like, Oh my god, Ray Brett Ray Brett brought him back from the dead again. He so I I don't know if you remember, but that guy lived. He lived after all that shit. He went and they got him surgery and they did whatever, got information from him. He lived, they amputated his leg. Yep, and uh, but then he escaped. He somehow escaped from prison from the the holding facility with one leg.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Good for him. That's what we said.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Like, I don't know how you how you got out with one leg hopping down the road, but he hopped his way over the fence, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Like, yeah, yeah. So it's like that was that whole system was corrupt, right? Like the army had their guy, their bases to call these guys or whatever. Yep. The guy we took. Um, I remember doing a raid with a guy, and we brought him to Camper Marty, but they drove him around on Camper Moddy for like ever in the back of a truck, and they were playing the helicopter sounds. Remember that to try and use these guys.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

I do remember that. I don't remember who the guy was, but yeah, I'm sure who the target was.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah, I remember that, but I don't remember the target, but that was startled. That cracked me up. I'm like, this poor bastard has no idea what his reality is right now. Yeah, but um yeah, the uh they have they were so like backwards, like even after April, when we had the battle in April, we captured all those guys, we had all those guys locked down, bring them in, and like a month later they're break back out, and you've seen the same guys in the marketplace. It was like, what the fuck? Why are these guys here? You know, yep. Crazy. The whole thing was a mess.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Well, I looked real quick. That army captain's name was Captain Schroger. I forgot.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yes, yes, Jody Schroger. Phil Bed, yeah. Phil Bed, I don't remember her name. She was phenomenal. She was really phenomenal. She was truly, truly gifted. She was really phenomenal. So many people that came through there that never should have survived any of it, and it came out really amazingly well. Yeah, she was awesome. Her people were, I think, just um, I guess. I mean, I look back now, my guy has probably a little bit of ego, mixed with a little bit of insecurity, but yeah, it was uh it was a little frustrating at the time to be like, bro, I don't care about that. Like, I'm just here to get this guy fixed. Can you kiss my ass and just get on with it? You know?

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Well, it's probably another one of those things where also you're talking to people who they expect to be working in a hospital environment, right? With verse versus literal dirt field field medicine, right? So this is you you get what you get.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

You get you get ghetto medicine, right? Yeah, it's it's letting we do what we can do. You know, we're gonna do the best we can to get this guy patched up into you, basically. That's the whole idea, so you can fix him. Yeah, so yeah, I remember coming in there before with people and they were like, Oh, what are the vital signs? I'm like, Alive, you know, what do you want me to tell you, man? That's you drop it to it. You know what I mean? You know, crazy.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

I mean, actually, that's a interesting point that I didn't think of either. I know we had like blood pressure cuffs and those kind of things.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Oh, yeah, all of it, yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

But they didn't get busted out very often. It was largely done like the old school way, like they have a strong femoral pulse, they have a strong carotid pulse, like they're good.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yep, yeah, that was it.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

They're they're breathing, they're good. Like that it was not, it was not like all these numbers driven thing. No, that's that's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Unless we're doing like uh something more clinical, like we had that uh that flu that blew through for a little while. That was uh super high fevers and all that. That then it was like more okay, we're gonna check fluid levels, we're gonna do the usual kind of traditional stuff. Guys, and then uh but but the uh out in the field, it's like all right, are we really gonna take the time to actually worry about this guy's blood pressure? No, stop the bleed, make sure he's breathing, get him somewhere where they can fix Humpty, you know. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah, so well, actually, that's a good point. So, what were some of the what were some of the non-combat things you were treating? Because I do remember that flu just because I remember Randall having the high fever and all kinds of crazy shit.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

He was talking in German, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was talking in German. I got sick. We were actually out, and I got like uh I had like a fever hit, and I think I ended up hitting like 105 or something like that at one point. I'm like, okay, that's probably not good. Yeah, that fever was that flu was nasty. Um, the Kurds we saw probably the most

The Weird Side Of Field Medicine

SPEAKER_00 21:17

weird stuff. We had at least two of those guys that we were pretty sure was Crimean Congo hemorrhagic fever. We were like, you know, where'd that come from? Like it shouldn't be in Africa. Yeah, you know, but that popped up because I remember thinking like this is definitely some kind of like in that vein. This is like, you know, it wasn't Ebola, but it was similar. It was very, very similar presentation. So that was an odd one. That was interesting, and I think Doc Sun is one actually figured out what it really was. But um so you saw some weird stuff like that. Um, I'm sure I remember the staff sergeant's name that had the heart attack, the Polynesian guy. He was an H and S guy, but he had a heart attack. Oh on Hurricane Point.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Staff Sar Moana.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

That's it, yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Right, or Gunny Marijuana.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

No, it was Gunny Moana that's That time I fucking forgot about that completely. He was so he was uh me and Blake, he was our uh school of infantry company instructor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Oh wow, yeah. So he had a tie to him. Yeah, he had a heart attack, like a full-on, full out, like no shit heart attack while we're there, you know. So trying to stabilize a heart attack in there, and then you'd have like the usual stuff. I mean, like guys just you know, falling down, spraying ankles or whatever. Um, I don't know how many times of uh just simple things like cold or allergies or like it's just so much stuff that you went through with stuff like that, you know, just all the usual typical stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Well, the course of these conversations, I think we've had, I think I'm I'm is it two cases at least of balls palsy?

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Yeah, we've had two, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, yeah, Kellogg when we were still in Kuwait, and then I'm trying to remember who it was, and uh we were in country that's the that's it, yes. It's crazy. You know, it was um it was and then everybody getting obviously you know the the food, like the diarrhea was like almost universal, you know. So making like a cocktail that I think Doc Cricket wanted to kill me for. He's like, What in the hell is that? I'm like, it's voodoo and it works. You shut up, leave it alone. It would it would stop it like dead short in its tracks, like otherwise you guys would be pissing out your ass for fucking weeks. But this was like it was like Doxy and um Emodium, and like I forget what else we had. Was like uh it was it was so it was so ghetto, it was such very like complete voodoo medicine. But it fucking worked. It worked, yeah. So but it it stopped it dead in his tracks, so you guys could actually function. I'm like, look, I'm not, you know, we'll deal with the craziness later. I'm like, you know, but right now I need these guys to be in the fight.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

So I just remember coming to you a couple of times getting getting hurt, or you know, there's a couple of times I got winged and I would just, you know, come back and ask you to throw a, you know, like stitch, stitch this quick, doc. I don't want to deal with this, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Um, and uh remember the purple heart curse, and everybody was worried about the purple heart? A couple of guys got the purple heart right out the gate and then they got killed and it was like, oh shit, there's a curse on it.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

So nobody wanted to report it, I would straight up hide my sh my injuries even from Hinkle, and then I'd come to you quick and just be like, quick, just just so many guys, bro.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

We took care of it. I took so many guys, like so many guys came like like they like they didn't want it. Like uh, even some more senior people, like some pretty senior people who are like, No, I'm good, I need a ward, but uh let's get this out of my leg. Yeah, so many guys, so many guys.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, you took you took a big one out of my back of my arm. Yeah, I still have a little piece of it every time how it floats around, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

It's crazy, right? It's wild to think like it's still just it just sits in there and it doesn't go anywhere. I just kind of uh hangs out, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

It's like a motherfucker. Sometimes it floats forward and I put my elbow down and it like just it's still across that nerve.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, that would be like an instantaneous like a hot button, like, hey, look, I'm still here.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah, I'm still alive.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Just in case you forgot, here I am.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

So actually, one of my uh bigger memories of you is a non-combat one. Um, and I'm curious if you remember this. Um, do you remember when you had me be your assistant during uh a surgery?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

I think so, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Uh it was they they had a cyst, like right, right, right where their flat jacket rested on their on the it was like right under it was like right next to their spine. Yep. And it was uh you tried to drain it a couple times and it was one of those it had a sack to it basically.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah, it was still attacked, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

And you said to him, and I was standing there and you said, You have two options. Well, three options, but you know, like ignore it and it's you know, we'll keep draining and it's gonna be a problem. But you we can send you back to Baghdad because we can't do it here. And then he's like, How long will I be gone for that? And he's like, I don't know. I mean, you'll come back, but we don't know how long you'll be gone. And you're like, I also think I could probably take it out, but I don't have a lot of like stuff. And uh this individual was like, Okay. And uh we proceeded to go to one of the empty uh bar uh one of the empty huts. There was nobody in there. And uh you uh you had you were like, All right, sit down on his you had him sit down, put his head uh arms straight out like in a superman. He laid on the concrete and put his put his head down. I kneeled underneath his armpits and then held his head while you like sat on his back and uh ripped it out.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

I don't know. Basically he ripped it out. It was just medicine.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

You you s you cut it, pulled it out, packed it real quick, and then you're as you're doing it, you're like, all right, muster, this is what you need to do. You know, you need to repack this every, you know, do this in the morning and the night, and you know, and anyways.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

We did a lot, but palinells. We had a couple of guys at Powin Elisists where we were there, right? The the ones that are on the top of the ass crack one. We had a couple of them. Oh really? A couple of big ones when we were there, and I was like, it's gonna really hurt. Sorry, dude. You know what I mean? Like, we'll feel better when we're done, but it's gonna hurt like hell right now. Yeah, there was a lot of that. A lot of um, like just you know, the the typical stuff you would see normally, and then like, but now it's you know, you're in the middle of here, so guys with cellulitis. Um I'm trying to think. Cellulitis was a big one. Cysts were pretty big too, probably because of the dirt in the environment and everything, right? But um, there was a lot of it. A lot of it, a lot of stuff like that. I remember um Savage, uh not too long before he got killed, unfortunately, but he was uh playing with uh lighter fluid in the back behind you guys' hooch or whatever, and like making the fire dance with his hands, and then the burning the shit out of his hands and out there with Rudy in the middle of the night putting Silvadine on his hands and like bro, you can't fuck around like this.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

You know, that is the most savage story, too. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

I felt so bad. He had such bad blisters all over his hands, but he still didn't want to like say anything to anybody, so he just sucked it up and he manned the gun. I'm like, that has got to fucking hurt. But he was great, he was good about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Uh-huh. Crazy. Do you do you remember when I cooked the inside of my arm? I was uh welding, and then you were you were checking that, and you were like, How the fuck did you do this?

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Like it didn't make any sense the angle of it. I'm like, what the fuck? That was crazy. I forgot about that, right? Welding on the um welding the armor on ourselves for the uh for the humpies loaded it on yourselves. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

We end up with quite a few people with welding injuries because of that, lit themselves on fire or just you know, the slag burnt off and burnt something.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Who was it that there um somebody burned their eyes with it? Um like not like burn burn, but like flash burned or whatever. Like it was not bad. It was definitely not bad, but it was like it was concerned.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Totally with me. Yeah, which you guys was because I didn't know what I was doing.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

I'll just lined it up as best I could and then shut my eyes real quick, but I would peek.

unknown 28:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

That is like the we had the most, I guess, what do you want to say, diverse uh diverse experience with medicine? Like you literally got the full gamut, you know? All we would have had to have was when you guys had give birth and we'd have pretty much hitten all the belt weapons every fucking one.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Well, some of those guys uh after eating those MRAs for multiple days, that was probably pretty close.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Oh the I remember the uh the powder potties after uh after April, because remember the uh the Portocard guys were in were insurgents from Shadeen. Yeah, and they were filled up. And I still clear as day remember guys challenging themselves like the Brown Cobra game, right? You guys would try and pile it on. It was above the seat. I'm trying, I'm not gonna say I know who it was I saw, but the door opened, squatting over this pile of poop that's above the seat, trying to put one more piece on and not knock it over like a Jenga or something. I'm like, oh my god. That shit was crazy. It was funny.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Oh man, it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

That was an amazing place. It was crazy, but it was funny. It was funny. We're a great bunch of people. Guys are crazy.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

So you would have did you end up staying in the company office when we got back to the house? No, when you were over there. Where did you where did you stay?

SPEAKER_00 30:17

I would either be um in like the headquarters hooch if I was there, or or like uh sometimes in the company office, sometimes the BAS. It was kind of a mix. Um depending on what was going on, if what we were what was planned or whatever, I would be wherever. But um, I I split time deaf between the the our side and like the BAS side just because of uh all the admin and everything else that was involved. And then uh just trying to help out the BAS, like when I when you had uh a lot of headquarters guys were getting um, I don't know what it was with those guys, but for a while there that was like IEDs were going off every day. But those guys kept coming back and you'd have like the like sand blast injuries. It was like almost it was almost like nightly where it was almost expected nightly, you're gonna be sitting in the BAS picking like rocks and sand out of somebody's face coming up from the blast or whatever. And it was like almost it was crazy. It was crazy. But so I spent a lot of time between the two. But most of the time I would try and like make myself kind of available to platoons, obviously, go out or uh or just be available like in where the headquarters little hooch was, whatever to be there. So if somebody needed me, they knew where to find me. It would be easier for you guys to find me more quickly, so I wasn't like hidden away somewhere. And then the command hooch, it was, you know, I was in there a lot with uh talking about doing whatever we had doing there, and then but there was uh it was always so busy in there. You try to stay hot all the way. You know what I mean? Sure. So it was um it was definitely interesting. It was definitely an interesting experience, right? It was wild, man. It was a wild place, but you guys truly were amazing. You were amazing.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Do you kind of remember what it was like uh during the window portion? Like kind of getting ready to go home and then getting where we kind of stayed. We stayed at Camp Junction Junction City at the time, but it ended up being Camper Marty, so Camper Mati on the way out.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah, sitting there. I spent a lot of that time talking to um they had the advanced party for their the next battalion, like they had their corpsmen, their guys coming through. I spent a lot of time talking to them about what we saw, what we what we did, what we experienced. A lot of time going over um

Handoff Lessons And Incoming Fire

SPEAKER_00 32:22

after actions and things like that. Um, we compiled for the BAS, we compiled, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of after action reports from the Corpsmen. What they saw, what they experienced, what they did, things like that. Um so a lot of admin like that, and then a lot of like training stuff. So training like the army had a bunch of new people coming in, talking to them about what they're gonna see out there, what they're gonna see coming in. Um I was a close head injury was a big one for us. We kept expressing that, like you guys, you know, like, oh, we got lots of manitol, like you don't have enough manitol. Like, trust me. You know what I mean? Like, get more. You're gonna need it, you know, because it was so many of those. But um, so a lot of it was just kind of relaying that information and then just the boredom, right? Uh I remember Rick Meekak, uh, he was the H Ness guy, he was at combat outpost, I think, the whole time. But those guys, him and a bunch of other guys playing Magic to Gathering, you know, killing time. It was like it was it was so real, right? It was kind of weird. Remember getting uh mortared, right? The mortars and rockets on the on the air on the airwave when we were leaving. Yeah. The very last bitter fucking day.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Your your last parting gift on the way out.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Now, I'm curious with your handoff with the 2-5 Corman, what how was that received? What did they did? They seem receptive, were they listening? Were they interested?

SPEAKER_00 33:36

What uh without a doubt, yeah. They were they knew, like they it seemed like they already knew. I guess they I mean they probably were hearing up, I mean, they're probably hearing rumor versions of it, but they were hearing about what was going on when they were they're already back and we're we're out there. So when they got there, they were extremely receptive to it. My biggest concern for us, like for weapons company, was where we were positioned on Hurricane Point. I'm like, one of these days they're gonna drop like because we had the hooch get hit, the outside walls get hit with rockets and mortars all the time. But my biggest concern was one landing right through that bullshit little roof they had on those things. You know, I'm like, it's gonna be a a massive, mass casualty if that happens. I'm like, you really gotta be prepared for that or whatever. And no shit. But then uh, I told the guys that from 2-5 coming in, and I think it was maybe a month after we left, or a month and a half after we left, they actually it hit it had uh two mortars land inside the 81 suit right through the killed a couple of guys and wounded a whole lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

I didn't hear that. Fucking horrible.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

That was after we left. It was like maybe a month or so, a month and a half after we left, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

I I can't say I'm surprised. We we talked about a million different solutions to that, and never all of them got shot down. Yeah. Put putting a chain link fence just above it, so that way it would strike the chain link fence and detonate, so at least you got above. Yeah, you got shrapnel instead of detonation in the hooch. I mean, there was yeah, there was a lot of sandbag in the roofs, and they were like, well, the roofs will collapse because they're cheap shit.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

We we we thought of everything, and it it all got shot down.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Uh that's unfortunate. And we've we talked about this fairly recently that unfortunately the two five guys kind of didn't, you know, they didn't get the luxury of growing with their insurgents because the insurgents didn't know anything, but they got uh a uh grisly, angry, well-trained insurgent right off the bat instead of kind of what we got, where we got kind of the amateurs in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Oh, yeah, it was like amateur hour, definitely. And they really had no idea what they were doing, and then we kind of schooled them a bit and they learned. They did adapt, they did learn, and they did get much better with their accuracy with those rockets and those mortars, right? It seemed like every day it was getting a little bit closer, a little bit closer, a little bit closer, a little bit more. So I wasn't surprised when I heard that they took a hit directly in. I'm like, all right, that's not surprising to me. But yeah, you're absolutely right. But they the Corman and the medical were very receptive, like we were able to relay a lot of information to them very quickly, which helped a lot because they structured themselves, I think, kind of to face that that way. So they probably had a better outcome for it. That's good. They were smart, they listened.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

It's good. Some of the lessons got passed down.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

You try, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Uh I I remember people, some people, not many, but a few outwardly having issues early. Like by the time we got to like Kuwait, people were already starting to have some issues just coming off the battlefield. Do you remember anything strike you? Anything, uh, anything you can remember?

SPEAKER_00 36:30

A lot of survivor's guilt.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

That was a big predominant, a predominant one with survivor's guilt.

Survivor Guilt And No Real Follow-Up

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Um, and then you had like it was surprising to me, but we had guys who were like, you know, they were almost like showing like like severe clinical like depressive type symptoms, but it was because they didn't want to leave. They were like, I guess because they felt so alive, like you feel so alive in the fight in the city or whatever, and now you're stepping down. And like that, it was almost like that withdrawal from the adrenaline and a lot of the stuff. You know, like it was interesting to kind of watch that play out. So it was interesting to see that. That was definitely unexpected. But the the vast majority was a lot of survivor's guilt, and then just a lot of anxiety and fear about you know what to expect at home. Um, a lot of guys, the biggest I think conversation I had a lot with with guys was basically, you know, how do I rectify who I am here with what I had to do here with who I really am at home? Like I feel like I'm two different people. I'm like, no, you're the same person, you just that person that had to do things in an extreme environment under extreme circumstances that normally you're not gonna do. But here you had to, it just it is what it is. You can't look at it as anything other than you did what you had to do, you did your job. That's what you're here to do. You do what you had to do and you moved on. That's it. You know, like it's you don't have to justify it in your head, you don't have to rectify it in any real sense of the word, you just have to acknowledge it and move from it, you know. So there was definitely a lot of a lot of issues, and a lot of guys were a lot of anxiety, a lot of guys are going home to wise that cheated, or you know, there was a lot of that stuff going on, a lot of the the background stuff going on. So there was a there's a tremendous amount there, but a lot of survivors' guilt, a lot of survivors' guilt, especially amongst like the leadership. That seemed like they're really prevalent amongst the leadership. Like I think they felt like they'd there's always that thought, like I could have done this, or I should have done that, you know, or why you would choose this road rather than that road, or so but yeah, there was a lot of that going on though. It's crazy, right? You know, I forgot about that part of it.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Yeah, well, I'm not trying to bring up painful memories, but I not at all.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Not at all.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

You kind of again, you you got to be a trusted confidant in a different way. I I had people come to me for different things, but they definitely didn't come for that kind of thing. And you would have, again, you would have talked to the senior leadership, so that's also an interesting component of it. Uh at least from our experience that that we've talked about previously on this podcast with other people and with ourselves, we don't remember much of like a medical follow-up. And I'm curious your perspective of that, because you might have actually been in those conversations. I to our estimate of it was that people weren't ready for what was coming home, that that many people were gonna have that many issues.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Oh, yeah. And without doubt, no.

unknown 39:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

I mean, that was around a time when we were coming back, it was around a time the army had that unit come back in uh what was it, uh, Fort Bragg or something like that? It was like 26 homicides in a weekend when it came back. Yeah, it was like it was a it was a that hit the news everywhere. And we were coming back around that same time, but they were absolutely not prepared. I mean, the whole medical coming home thing, even before we left, it was all these screenings and these shots and everything else. And us coming back was basically having you guys fill out like a questionnaire like, Did you ever see a dead guy? Did you kill a guy? Like stupid things like that. And okay, they asked some of the right questions and they at least made a half-hearted attempt, but then nobody ever followed up on it, you know. Like there was no follow-up, there was no like, let's check in with guys and see how they're doing and see what's going on. If if if it was done, it was much more informal, like me or Rudy or somebody else doing it, you know, and just trying to make sure guys are okay. You know, there was no real follow-up to any of that. You know, I think they were trying to push well butrin back then. It's like, oh, we'll just give them well butrin, they'll be fine. I'm like, cause a psychotic break, or you know, we could do that too.

unknown 40:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Yeah. I I don't remember well butrin being offered. I remember uh Benadryl being offered. Like, oh, we can help you sleep. You can just take some Benadryl.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Benadryl, yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

I don't I don't know if that'll help, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

I don't think they actually ever gave anybody well butrin. It was told that was like one of the things I got, like one of the one of the meetings we were in, it was saying, like, oh, we're gonna we're gonna have well butrin available for them to take to uh to level them out, you know. But there was no real no real thought put into like what to do with people when they got them back, you know, like when they came home. None, you know, like no real effort put into I think actually thinking about what that would look like or what that might look like in ten years or f or even twenty years out, you know?

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Well yeah, that I mean there certainly wasn't a 20-year plan. Well both Blake and I started working on getting out because we both got out in December. Uh where where did you end up after after everything? And how was your coming home? How was your process coming home?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

You had a new kid too.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

It was good. It was um Yeah, that was my first one. He was like uh about a month old. I saw her when we got home, and uh so I was very much like from you know that mode into like, oh look, no, I got this little baby. You know, I loved it. I loved it. I leaned into that. I love being a dad. That was my it was

What It Meant And Final Advice

SPEAKER_00 41:44

the best thing ever. So I just leaned into I spent all my time with him if I could. I spent as much time as possible. When we got back, I I stayed with two four. I didn't the next deployment we did on uh 31st V1, right? Went back out.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

After that, I think. And then after that deployment, I rolled over to the regiment because I knew I was getting out at that point. So I went to regimentality station and I was just training guys there and doing sick call and training guys at the regiment to get ready to go to the battalions. And uh did that until I got out and actually joined you on my PD. And so that was my transition. It was March of March 2007 I got out.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

All right. I didn't I did not know that you had stayed around Fifth Marines that long, but that's there the rest of the time.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

I didn't want to go anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

That's good, man. You're a hell of an asset, so that's good. Dave we're lucky to have you. Uh I mean you've already said it about a thousand times, but uh we've kind of been wrapping this up the same way. When you look back on it, what does it mean to you personally? What do you tell people?

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Um, I it was a truly humbling experience, but I got to walk amongst giants. But my my biggest takeaway from it, like lesson I would probably offer other people, is to just, you know, just focus on the mission, right? Just focus on the task at hand. Don't don't let the external, you know, push you more than it absolutely has to. You know, just focus on the task at hand. Because that's what you guys did. You guys are constant professionals. You just focused on what was necessary right in front of you. Okay, here's the problem I have to solve right now. I'm solving that problem. And you kept moving that way. And if you look at it realistically, our casualty count should have been much higher, right? And with the casualties we did have with the wounded, we shouldn't have been, we should have been combat ineffective. But instead, we whooped an entire city's ass, you know what I mean, like multiple times. So, I mean, it's just absolute proof that if you just stick to the plan and just kind of keep your feet moving and keep yourself moving in that right direction, it's gonna end up being all right in the end. So that would be my biggest takeaway from that people is you know, you know, train as much as you possibly can, you know. No scenario is extreme if you can imagine it. It could probably happen. So you might want to keep an idea in the back of your head about what to do for that. Because we had some weird stuff, and uh you guess you guys are so amazing. I was I was so humbled and and still honored to be able to have spent that time with you guys. I really was like it's. To me, it was uh one of the best experiences of my life. I think it it definitely shaped me to be much, much more prepared for the things I wanted to do after after that. Being a cop, being a detective, that shaped me greatly to be able to do those things. So, I mean, I just appreciate all you guys. I miss all you guys, as ugly as you all are.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

We miss you too.

unknown 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Good times. If you like what you heard, make sure you subscribe for future episodes on your favorite podcast service.