Constant Combat

Never Lead with Comfort - Deverson Lochard

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We sit down with MAP3's Deverson Lochard, a Marine sergeant and machine gunner who cross-decks from 3/5 into a deploying unit to prepare young Marines for Ramadi with one uncompromising priority: getting everyone home alive. He shares what combat demanded of their leadership, how loss and rage tested their discipline, and why the deployment ultimately reshaped his faith and his appreciation for human life.

• why he cross-decked into 2/4 before deployment
• first impressions of young Marines
• training for “controlled, organized chaos” under fire
• discipline, machine gunner philosophy, and convoy survivability
• learning Ramadi through patterns, locals, and hard instincts
• the weight of losing Conde and the struggle to forgive himself
• April 6 and April 7, exhaustion, and immediate reset routines
• the ethical pressure of armed women and children in the fight
• moments of humanity on patrol
• keeping sane through letters, workouts, and Halo tournaments
• transitioning out, choosing electrical engineering, and building a new purpose
• frequency as a way to explain veteran success and spiritual return



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If you are a member of Weapons Company or someone with a story about Weapons Company 2/4 in 2004, please come tell some stories with us - 20 mins or 20 hours! Help paint the canvas of an archival story for others to know what it was like. Contact us @ RamadiPodcast@gmail.com, or via the podcast website above. 

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Meeting A Combat Veteran Leader

SPEAKER_03

Cool, man. So everybody here y'all.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, hi. My name is uh Davison Lachog. I served with uh two four uh from February of 2004 until what was it December of uh 04? Um I was a sergeant of Marines. Um I was with uh Matt 3 with uh Gunny Kutcher, Sasha with Donzo. Uh I was a squad section leader with uh Sergeant Kenneth K. Kandy and Sergeant Williams, who were the three section leaders um during that uh deployment. My job was I was in charge of all the cruisers and the gun trucks. Um what did I bring to the table? So before the deployment of uh 04, I was part of the initial invasion in Iraq in 2003 with uh with 3.5.

SPEAKER_02

I know that. 3.5 that's cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was my first duty station when I first came to California, I was 3.5. I was with a weapons company in 3.5, and then uh I cross-decked over to 2.4 because I was undecided whether or not I was gonna stay or get out. So I believe that had eight months left. No, February, February to October. What is that? Nine months, I had nine months left on contract. So instead of wasting time, and two four were about to deploy, but they didn't have anyone that's in combat at the time, and myself, um, John Mark, for example, we were in uh we were in in in 2-4 or in 3-5 having combat. Right, yeah. I wanted to get that experience and have all those Marines to make him understand to what is it that they are about to embark in that it wasn't gonna be easy. Like your mindset needed to be proper. You cannot go there thinking that you're gone ho. Um, there was no so that was my mindset behind there knowing so because I was one, I was undecided whether I was gonna remain, and two, I feel like I would have been better served um to teach their younger Marines about survivability and so on and so forth. So when I checked into 2-4, I met with uh Sergeant Major Booker at the time. He asked me where do I want you to go, which was kind of crazy. But I told him uh weapons company. I was with the line company, I don't want to go about to line, so I went to weapons. So went to weapons, then as a sergeant, um then Dorres, Doris's history from there.

SPEAKER_03

And were you a mortarman the same as uh John John Mark Lopez? Or what was your primary MOS?

SPEAKER_01

I was a uh O331 machine gunner.

SPEAKER_03

Ah, that so that makes sense why you're in charge of all the cruise serves.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, all right, good. All the gun trucks and cruise serves, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Nice. So any first impressions of uh that you remember of uh coming over from uh I always find the compare and contrast very uh interesting from like 3-5 coming over to 2-4.

SPEAKER_01

Oh you know what? I saw a whole bunch of innocent young men who did not know what they're about to embark into. I saw a whole bunch of young men who were in the mindset of yeah, we're going to war. We this is what we trained for all of our lives, but I don't think they understood what it was gonna be like to be in the shit. Pardon the language.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no, you get no, swear as much as you want. This is not a PG podcast, you can say whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I I felt like like see seeing the innocence on their face, and those, mind you, because two four I just found they were getting deployed, so they got augmented by a whole bunch of SOI drop. Yep, at the time. So you have a whole bunch of Marines fresh out SOI. They didn't even have a chance to train, they didn't have a chance to go do cacks like we did. Yep, right. Those guys just got off the bus, get on the plane, and next thing you know, then co wait. And I felt like go ahead, sorry. No, I felt like I was gonna make a difference.

SPEAKER_02

Awesome. Now I'm sorry, remind me, you came in February or of 04.

SPEAKER_01

I think I crossed that.

SPEAKER_02

Did I go to were you at March Air Force Base, for example?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I went to March Air Force Base and then I'd I'd approach with you guys because we did we did a few hikes.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I just wasn't sure how close to us like going on the plane, like how much time you had yourself to get to know everybody.

SPEAKER_03

I

Switching Units To Teach Survival

SPEAKER_03

was gonna say if you went to March, you were probably with us in January because uh March Air Force Base was the last week of January, I think it was around the time of the Super Bowl.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I yeah, I did I did all that, like yelling at what's his name, he was late and everything, like like I don't know, like a lot of the Marines saw me, they're like, damn, this motherfucker is freaking is hard. What the fuck? Why is he so freaking uh why is he like so freaking mean to us? Like it wasn't about trying to be hard or trying to be mean. It's you what's what was that movie called with Clanians Wood?

SPEAKER_03

Heartbreak Ridge.

SPEAKER_01

Heartbreak Ridge. Oh, yeah, you know, he's got all these Marines who they're like the green phone guys, that thing's the balance and whatnot, but then you have him, the gunny who's been there, who's seen the thing or two, trying to mold them to get him to take it seriously. And please understand that I watched that movie after that deployment. So I had no idea. A few of them made the reference of man, this motherfucker is like freaking the gun you from Hot Boy's Greek. But that that that was uh the thing. I don't know, man. It's it's just it's just crazy. I just saw all these young souls, and I just wanted to be impactful and everything. Because I remember when I Gunning Culture came, then there was something in my section. I remember talking to them, and I say to them, the difference between me and you is my experience. I put my pants on the same way you do. I go to sleep, I bleed just like you. The only difference is my experience. You have an experience, you don't understand what you are about to endure. But that is the only difference. My job as your section leader is to get you back home alive. Nothing else matters to me. I do not care about freaking Susie back home. I don't care what's happening back home, I only care about getting you back alive. And that's that that that was my speech to them. And this is the same speech that I went and gave to one two kids in one one when I went there after the drill field. So that's that was my speech to them. To get them to understand the seriousness of it. Like Lopez and I, we've we went to Buchan. Budopez, I was on the East Coast, Lopez was on the West Coast. We both checked into 3-5 together at the same time, and we've been brothers ever since. Nice based on the experiences and everything that that we have. Like I talk to him all the time, like we always say, he's still trying to get me to come to Texas. But we've been we've been we've been like that, and he's not young, got a few. I'm still in touch with Latham, you know. Yeah, good. Me too.

SPEAKER_03

I talk to Latham almost every week.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, uh you talk about the guys being junior, and it's true. We got a lot of boot drops, but the other guys who were not boots, we got to watch you do all the work on TV while we were sitting on ship going around in circles uh around Okinawa. And so a lot of those guys felt like they were missing out. And it it uh, I mean, literally, I remember watching and being like, I know that guy, these are fifth Marines we're watching on TV, like literally being like, that's our people while we're sitting on ship watching it on TV. So yeah, I imagine, especially like Brown, because Brown was there on ship and stuff like that, or other guys like that, where you may have been eager, more eager than you should have been to get your chance.

SPEAKER_01

With uh with them. Well, it was about having them understand that their leadership matters. Don't don't worry about what's on my chest. You know, getting that first combat action, that's what every single infantry marine must have. Like you do not measure yourself, you you don't consider yourself a real infantryman unless you have that call. But um I would like say to them, dude, if we can go and not get shot at that's that'll be beneficial to all to us.

SPEAKER_02

But and that's a hard one to wrap your head around if you haven't it. That's that's only something that can be said by someone that's already done it. Uh because then similarly, when I when coming back, it was stuff that I was saying to some of my senior Marines who had gotten out. They're like, Man, you know, like I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go back in and I need to get that experience. It's like it's not what you it's not everything you think it is, man.

SPEAKER_01

Like it's not. Like, I I remember vividly the first time I got shot at, I had the head full of hair. And the stress, through the spreads, I I lost my I went I went bald. Maybe that's the story you're going with. Maybe I was I was destined to go bald, but I went bald sooner than I wanted to. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_03

So maybe you both. The last time I had hair was in Ramadi. So that that's what happened. Yeah. I'm with you. That's the story we're gonna tell everybody.

SPEAKER_02

I love it. I love it. So so with so I appreciate the philosophy that you came in and and the and the the cause that you were pursuing and coming over to us, and thank you for that. Uh, what did you did you have any specific trainings or drills or um processes that you were pushing down on your guys prior to us leaving to get over to Ramadi?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I did the machine guns course. I uh I was a mountain instructor.

Training For Controlled Chaos

SPEAKER_01

Um, some of the combat that we saw, we were in the uh urban environment, breaking down doors, looking for their means, how to cross to a threshold. So I had all that training. The main thing that I was always hopping on them is the uh the move cover fire movement. That was like the biggest thing. The second biggest thing, you are never by yourself, you always have a partner with you. Like I mended it that the gunner and the driver will always appear together. Yep, the VC and whoever was in the back, you will appear together. It didn't it didn't freaking matter to me. The other thing also that the philosophy that I that I brought up also was the man below me will know I will do my job. The mission will carry on even if I get what even if I get what the other thing is like making them understand it's just like making them understand the seriousness, the magnitude of what they are about to endure, the mindset like I said earlier, nothing else matters uh but the man to your left and right. Nothing else matters, don't care. You gonna and that's now that was real. I guess I was blunt too blunt with them because I was like, look, look, you're gonna get the Dear John letter. You will get those letters. It's not gonna be fun, but I need you to be in the now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, and you're right. I know of a couple guys that got the uh Dear John oh multiple, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

That there's there's yeah, well, we've had a couple of guys talk about it too.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, regard regardless of rank. I mean, there were staff NCOs that got them, there was officers that got him.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and again, that that's why when my first child was born, I realized that I could not give a hundred percent to the marine corps while giving a hundred percent to my family. Sure. So yeah, so one one had to give, unfortunately, the Marine Corps. I had to let it go. It's still dear to my heart. Marine Corps is what helped shape the type of men that I am today. So I'll never, never regret my time as a Marine, never. But it was nothing but growth. You know, I was like a wayward kid, um doing shenanigans, but then it helped straighten me out.

SPEAKER_03

I wonder if your some of your philosophy that you were talking or your your focus on the way of tactics, two things came from your experience as a machine gunner, in that machine gunners never do things solo, you're always in pairs. Always, always. And as a machine gunner, you expect to die, right? That's the old uh they teach you that in machine gunner school. Now, I wasn't a machine gunner, I was a tow gunner, but I worked with machine gunners literally from the second I hit the fleet. I was always in a cat platoon. I was literally we talked about machine gun philosophy a whole hell of a lot more than we talked about how to employ a tow missile. And they always told you when shit hits the fan, the machine guns are the biggest target on the battlefield because that's what every enemy wants to get rid of, because you're gonna be the biggest force multiplier. And so I wonder if that's I I mean, I don't know, I don't know how much you tell me. How much did that feed into your uh some of your leadership philosophy? Because that's that's what it sounds like to me hearing it back from you.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you know, I used to run like hell, right? Oh yeah, I had this thing where Morrison said, damn, why are we running so much? Why are we doing on screen runs? Why are we doing gas mask funds? I asked Latham. Latham used to hate my guts. Why are we doing gas mask funds? Why are we administering IVs with a gas mask on? Why are we doing this? Jimmy, this is what was more important. I could care less about how you look in garrison, right? I I cared about someone shot. Can you administer a tourniquet? Can you call in the medieval? Can you do a nylon? Can you call for fire? Can you get on the radio while you're getting shot at? Stay cool and collected, directing the chaos, organized chaos. Can you do all that? Your mindset. That was that was my philosophy. That was that that was the thing, like the controlled, organized chaos. Can you endure that? If you can endure that, you can be your freaking CEO on any company. Nothing else will faze you. Like the heat, you know, we're walking on patrol and our boots are melting, or our boots are sinking into the into the uh the pavement or into the the the street, the the asphalt, boots melting in. Like, if you can do all that, nothing else back in the US will faze you.

SPEAKER_03

Very true. Did you have any? So you got to us January. You didn't have a lot of time to develop any deep relationships, at least not before because we deployed February 16th. Uh, any first thoughts of your sort of co-leadership between uh Sergeant Connie, Sergeant Williams, Staff Sergeant Rapazzo, Gunny Crutcher?

SPEAKER_01

Um Gunny Crutcher and I we hit it off because he saw himself in me when he was younger. Um staff serve. We didn't start out so hot because he felt like I was too strict with the Marines. I wouldn't let shit fly because to me the attachment detail that's what keep you alive. But then as the deployment went on, we became closer and closer. Um Kandy and I, we our our our characters kind of like was kind of clashing. Candy was more of the men of the people for the moment.

SPEAKER_03

It's very true, it's very true. He's a big personality, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But then me, I didn't give a F if you like me or not. My mindset was still men the same, at least you could say I was consistent.

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_01

So that was the thing. Sergeant Williams always was keeping the peace between me and Condi because we will any moments will be at our thought. But Williams was always there to keep the peace.

SPEAKER_03

That's funny.

SPEAKER_01

But again, towards the end, we all got close. We all, you know. That was that was that's what I remember. Then, of course, you have like the the junior guys and everything, like Kelly, for example. He and I developed a pretty good friendship, Daniels. I remember Daniels. Um we really got tied together.

SPEAKER_03

And you kind of talked about it a little bit because you started in about the gas mask runs. Because I remember you guys going on gas mask runs in Kuwait. What do you remember about getting to Kuwait and kind of prepping guys while we were doing our uh acclimatization before we crossed the border?

SPEAKER_01

Well, keep in mind in 03, we used we thought that the enemy had end tracks, right? So we were sleeping on our gas masks and everything. I remember that shit freaking sucked. I didn't want them to the first time they put gas masks will be in the heat. And then they're freaking suffering, and they're like, Oh, I can't breathe, and then remove it, and then boom, they get yeah, absolutely lapse of judgment. So

Kuwait Prep And Early Contact

SPEAKER_01

It seems like all of my experience came back in and I put it to use to teach them. It was like as if everything that I experienced in Notary naturally came back to teach them. Like my survival, survival mode just came in naturally to me. So that's why like and the reason why why was I hard? If you're in shape, you get shot. Because you're in shape and there's less fat between the muscle tissues, your muscles will tense and your blood will coagulate a lot faster, keep you from bleeding. But if you're out of shape, you got fat, your muscles ain't gonna be able to like you know tense up and allow somebody, and you're just gonna bleed out. Being able to administer an IV, like as simple as it sounded, it was very important to me. Again, my mindset was I didn't care what I had to do, it was to get them all back alive. That was my mindset.

SPEAKER_03

Nice. Did you guys did you were you part of the group? I I assume so because I think all of Matt 3 drove up. Did you guys drive up? And who did you drive up with from Kuwait in 04?

SPEAKER_01

It was uh yeah, I think was was Latham my driver. I don't know. I wasn't I was in a truck. Uh I think I was with VC. I don't remember who who who was in the truck with me. Okay, but yeah, we did we did we did the journey.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. The long for whatever reason, because there was 75 vehicles in the convoy, it took two days to get there, even though it's a six-hour drive. Uh any first thoughts when you first got into Ramadi and kind of saw where we were staying at Hurricane Point?

SPEAKER_01

It reminded it reminded me of Dounia. Because that's when we stayed in uh Dunia the uh first time. So I was like, uh, look, I'm back.

SPEAKER_03

Home sweet home.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Did you go out on any of the early missions with the uh the group the army unit from from before? Were you on any of those early patrols with them to get a lay of the land of Ramadi?

SPEAKER_01

Yes. I remember one of them we came across an ID. One of the uh soldiers were on his back trying to shoot a cable from a uh was that 155 round that they had set up to ambush us. Um it was interesting. I was like, yeah, I remember I remember that in in uh the Unia who were doing that stuff. So again, it wasn't it was interesting watching the demeanor, how everybody was on edge, but then somehow I didn't feel the joke to go to go on edge because been there. But then we got fired, we got shot at, then I directed machine guns. Hey, shoot at that window here. No, that was like their first time, that was their first time seeing me in action, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And when I came back in like, man, you were so calm out there.

SPEAKER_01

What your first time? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So what I remember is you guys during the left seat right seats, uh, you were the first platoon to get contact, like actual in a shooting match. And that I mean, I think that's what you're describing there. And I remember everybody was so jealous, it was so funny. And I remember I those with the first memories I have of you specifically, because I don't think we talked much in Pendleton before we deployed, but I remember that because you had you were always so serious. But when we when you came back from that first contact, you had this big grin on your face, and I was like, Oh, all right, that's that's that's that's a serious dude. That's awesome. Yeah, nice. Any uh any memories of those sort of early missions after the 82nd Airborne left and we took over the AO. So basically March 6th through April, up to the beginning of April.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it was just learning learning the AO.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Going going on patrols, understanding if kids were not on the street, we're about to get ambushed.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Listen to the locals. If we saw rocks stacked up, follow what the locals did. If the locals were avoiding an area to avoid it, also don't need to go there. I build the I uh after a while. I had the knack of identifying if there's a vehicle that's parked. I I I don't know why and how I care about all this, but if there was a vehicle that was parked one way, I'll tell my driver, hey, go all the way to the other side. Now, but but sold it's oncoming traffic. I don't care. Go into oncoming traffic, drive. Then me being the lead, everybody else will follow me. Then the vehicle will blow up. And they're like, How did you know? I said, I I don't know. It's just my instincts. Yeah, it's just just my instincts to just like to this day. I just don't know, but I I think I know, I think I I had God on my side, you know. That was the one thing, and I wasn't much of a believer in country, but later on I've come to understand that Jesus was always there with me. Jesus had had had a hand in protecting protecting us as long as we were doing the right thing, we were not going out and shooting innocent people, we had the protection of God.

SPEAKER_03

Did you have any kind of spiritual practice, sort of, in 2004? Or anything you did for good luck? Did you carry a good luck charm or anything?

SPEAKER_01

I did not.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But in July, when uh Kandy passed, I did blame myself. And I'm not I'm not pleased to say it, but I blame God also. It took

Instincts, IEDs, And Finding Faith

SPEAKER_01

me a very long time because I feel like it should have been me, should have not been him. I remember because when he got hit, I was the first one by his vehicle. I pulled him out of the uh uh out of the truck looking at the shrapnel sticking out of his forehead, the shrapnel in his leg all over his body. Um I like blame myself because the night the night pyre, so you know we we had the open back, so I had the soft the soft open back, and we like we we all became welders.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01

Um stacking the bug the the the the base with sand with with sandbags and everything. Um and then we have we got some of the up armored vehicles that we had to share 50-50, half the section will go in up armored, the other half will go um in the in the open back. It was my sections turned to go in the up armored, but once we got the call, QRF. Well, once we got the call that we're going on the patrol with at the time, Major Waller, who was our CEO, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, Captain Wiler at the time. He wasn't even a major until afterwards.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, Captain Waller. Um, then Kandy had all these people going the up armor. I'm like, no, dude, it's our turn to uh be in the up armor. So like we argued, we argued, and then he's like, nah, fuck it. All right, get out, get out, give them the freaking up armor. That was like the uh argument that we had the night prior on uh July 30th. Yeah, it'd be you're right, it'd be June, June 30th, yeah, June 30th, yeah, leading to July 1st, and then uh we were supposed to go back, but then the call was made to do one more round, didn't get hit by the ultras. Then I drive over there, pull him out. What was that uh AO that was near the ultras? Combat outpost, yeah. Combat out post that we draw into combat outposts. Um watch him take his last breath, but he wasn't pronounced dead until while he was in the air, I think, but I did watch him take his last breath. I I do recall vividly stay with me, stay with me, you're gonna be okay. And yeah, man. It took me took me a long time to forgive myself. All I could replay was that argument. Took me a very, very long time. But then I recall major uh once they confirmed that he he he passed, my eyes just turned red. I was just crying, screaming. Like I think you you saw all of map three.

SPEAKER_03

I was over there with you. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

When when we lost them, it was like our world ended, like I felt like a failure because I promised myself that I would bring everybody back, and I didn't. Like I took it, I took it hard, but it was a blessing because Colonel Kennedy at the time stood us down. He didn't allow us to leave the firm base for like what three, four days.

SPEAKER_03

That sounds correct.

SPEAKER_01

I think that was the best decision that was ever made because there would have there would have been an international incident.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah, that's that's an understatement. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

The entire platoon, we we just wanted blood. And I'm I'm like not happy to say that I also lost my bearing too, because I wanted blood. But luckily stood us down, then we we were not even able to we were not even able to stand watch. Because during that time the fund gate got attacked, and we were not allowed to go and help out reinforce the front gate.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Then he eased us back in, we started studying God and everything, and found our way back. It was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_02

It's a hard one. It's obviously my story isn't exactly the same, but it I have some very specific times when you got people got hurt, people got killed, when it was everything inside of you to maintain that professionalism, you know, and I can I'm very glad that we never crossed the line. Yeah. It's uh but it's easy to understand how it happens though.

SPEAKER_03

Oh a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02

You a hundred percent. You love you love those. Even if you didn't like the guy, uh I mean there's a couple guys that got hurt and whatnot that weren't necessarily friends. Um, but it's still that was still your brother. And so um you still you wanted to have some control and you wanted to have, you know.

SPEAKER_04

You wanted to have an outward expression of how frustrated and mad we were.

SPEAKER_02

So I can get it. I'm glad that uh Colonel Kennedy had the foresight too. Oh to keep the uh to keep the dogs of war on a short leash at that moment.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. Like I I our women's and our women's about about this a lot. I'm like like he saw in our eyes, because once we came back, he was the first one there. Him and Sergeant Major Booker. They were the first one there. Even Sergeant Major Mac, he knew he he saw me and Candy. Like we were like we're competitors, like we we we wanted

Loss, Rage, And Command Restraint

SPEAKER_01

what was best, but we wanted the same thing, but the way we we were to get there wasn't the same. Yep, if if but ultimately we wanted the same thing. Yep, that's why like our I guess our characters were clashing, but I still saw him as my brother.

SPEAKER_02

100%.

SPEAKER_01

Like everybody, every single person in the company I saw as my brother. Like, remember when we first got there, we're getting moldered, then we'll all be rushing, putting our flak jackets on and everything. Then after like four or five weeks of that, like man, fuck it. If it's our time, it's our time.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh or or you like wake up in the morning. I I remember one time I woke up in the morning, I was yawning, and outside the door. Then a flash of orange goes by me. Then I looked at blue diamond getting hit. I was like, oh shit, that was a rocket shot from the front gate, shot it through the front gate, somehow went down the street, missed everything, and then and then that that experience, like you cannot you cannot reproduce it. You cannot like if someone wasn't there to like having gone through it, they're not gonna understand.

SPEAKER_03

Not very much so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like it doesn't matter. It's like somebody somebody's getting ambushed. It didn't freaking matter. We go out there. Like, what was it? April? Was it in April when the army got pinned down and we went? We went, we didn't even know them. Like, there was a soldier that was pinned down. I went over there as a cover fire, and I went over there and got his weapon, somebody else was dragging the soldier out, and the first the first uh ID, first infantry division in the army. Yeah, like that really that I think that day that all of Wimadi went upside down, like we all got closer together.

SPEAKER_03

A thousand percent. Yeah, that I have it's funny. I was gonna ask you because uh you went straight to July, so I was gonna wait for a few minutes and then ask you what you thought about April. But yeah, April 6th was the day that everybody was like, okay, not only are we all engaged, but now we're all more, I mean we're all brothers. There's no other way. Like I literally, I would if I saw an echo company guy, I was trying to give him water and like keep him in my truck if I could, you know, just to everybody needed to be taken care of. And if any if there's anything I could do to make you get home, that was what I wanted to do. Didn't matter what it was.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, as long as we were wearing the same same flag, yep, same everything. Yep. But the the one thing also, like the humanity, the humanity was still there. We were still going out there, having tea with the elders, giving candy to to children and everything, like being able to be in a firefight one moment, and then the next passing out candy, like this shit never freaking happen. Yeah, you would think that we're bipolar or something.

SPEAKER_03

Did you guys do a lot of that during the invasion? Did you do any sort of uh the public relations type stuff?

SPEAKER_01

To be honest with you, no, we were hated.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And so did you find it hard to do on this deployment that you had to go out and and kind of shake hands, kiss babies, hand out candy, that kind of stuff? Soccer balls?

SPEAKER_01

No, I feel like my compassion for men was different. I had more respect for life after seeing death.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

I I I came to respect life more after seeing death and seeing enemy combatant, whatever the case is, I I came I became more appreciative of life.

SPEAKER_02

I can appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03

For sure. Yeah, living on the I mean, again, this isn't about me in any way, but uh I I feel like combat brings you to a point where you're sort of at the edge of life, right? You can see death, you can imagine your own death, you're definitely seeing other people's death, uh, enemy or otherwise, could be could be your own again in your own platoon. And it does give you that that edge view of like, oh, there's something about certain parts of this that are sacred, and maybe I can not always be maybe I don't always have to be fighting, right? It was nice to see like some some little kid who didn't even care anything about what you did 20 minutes ago and just want to talk to you and they're interested in you because you were weird and you had a flashlight or you had a piece of candy or whatever. Yeah, it those were good moments.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes those things were hard. Did you ever feel like you had to keep guys from being mean to the locals or anything?

SPEAKER_01

You know, no, I think we all were on the same wavelength without we didn't have we didn't even have to speak it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01

The thing that honestly, the thing that really brought joy

Kids, Candy, And Staying Human

SPEAKER_01

to our faces while we're on the patrol was seeing the kids smiling.

SPEAKER_00

Mr. Mr. Candy, candy, candy.

SPEAKER_01

And they're like, we give them candy, and you see the joy on their faces, and like you give them a handful of candy out of a bag, and they go and share and they're all happy jumping up and down. That really brought joy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I mean, and in so I always felt like your your platoon was kind of a group of brawlers, anyway, right? People who could fight at any time if they needed to. Yes. But the majority of your platoon was very young. I mean, very young. You I mean, they were kids themselves, half of them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, you know, you mentioned one guy, Brown. Like, I think in that deployment, Brown was nine, 19 because he he went in at 17, right? So, like, and and he was a senior at 19. And all the other guys who were SOI drops were 17 or 18. That it's it was uh yeah, it's weird. It's a weird feeling. Well, you kind of mentioned April. What do you remember from April 6th? Because you guys were the first ones out the gate.

SPEAKER_01

We win the shit, man. We wooing the shit.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's it that's a good summary.

SPEAKER_01

We calling pretty much all the also notes that the US military had short of dropping a 500 pounder. We have the heel's, we all of the trending. Seen Eve se single street corners, you see somebody with an RPG trying to aim, and we were just freaking fighting. I remember Company Gunny coming back, making multiple runs, dropping us ammo to recover our fallen. Like the army was there, like never seen army and marines work so well together, kicking down doors, the communication aspect of it. It was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_03

Now that's interesting. I I because a lot of people have told a lot of stories. I didn't realize you were clearing houses side by side with some of the soldiers. Did you did you actually do some house clearing with them?

SPEAKER_01

We do, we did.

SPEAKER_03

Nice. And how how did you find that? Because we did actually interview an an army soldier, though she was one of the lioness uh team. She thought it was weird that like army and marines don't use the same words for the same things. Did you find any issues with that?

SPEAKER_01

You know, that was her last thing. That was the last thing on my mind, man.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Like we we we had one objective and to recover our wounded, yeah, good, our KIAs and stay alive. That was the only thing that mattered. We again we were all under the same flag, same umbrella.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so on April 6th, my to my memory, again, you guys were the first out the gate, but Rainmaker wasn't far behind you, and then we were third out. And you went to go support golf company because their platoon was surrounded, had KIA already. Their QRF was unable to get to their platoon because they were pinned down not far away, like two, three blocks away, but they were stuck, they just could not advance any further. Do you sort of remember what it was like rolling up on scene?

SPEAKER_01

Um, as we are holding on to them, I recalled Gunny Carshow was the lead. I think I was third or fourth vehicle. I saw a guy with a red checkered shirt with an RPG M in.

SPEAKER_00

And I told my my driver, stop the car, stop the truck, stop the truck.

SPEAKER_01

Slims on his brake. I told my gunner, point your gun towards that towards that wall and shoot it. Shooting to the wall, and I went around, retrieved the RPG. Now the pipe was going to freaking shoot us with. Then after that, I recommended to Gunny Culture, Gunny. I think we should be dismounted. We need to be on foot.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We we we find out we had people, we send dismounted on the next streetover, left and right, and the gun trucks, cigar shape, on the guns, gunners scanning and everything. Once in a while, we're shooting out windows, those guys just popping up out of nowhere, like cockroaches, just trying to get us. But we we're going. Yeah, I yeah, it was it was chaotic.

SPEAKER_03

Now, I had my own thing going because we we went to the north of the city to reinforce Echo Company, who was pinned down. Same same story. They were cut off completely. The sniper team and Echo's QRF were both cut off. Um I know you guys were back and forth between dropping off casualties and going back out to the same area to the fight. It was the first day on the sixth, it was what, six, seven hours you were out there? Like engaged six or seven hours?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Just curious from your estimate, and this is something that's generally interesting to me. How about how many enemy do you think you probably saw on the total of the sixth? Wounded or KIA, or even just that ran by you? Just a rough estimate, guess.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like the entire city was against us.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

But like armed individuals, I'd say 200, 250. Not even exaggerating.

SPEAKER_03

No, I I believe it actually. And it so the only reason why I ask is I don't know where anybody got the numbers that they got, because they the the official estimates ended up being something like it was like 250 total across the city. And the numbers I'm getting from each individual platoon is like minimum four times that, and probably much higher, right? That just doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01

Because I've I've I feel like the entire city was against us.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, it was yeah, rolling boil and gunfights the whole way. You left the gate. Once you were outside of the site of the bridge posts, because the bridge post never saw anybody with a weapon. And that was the other interesting thing is the bridge posts were looking for a gunfight, and the insurgents were smart enough to stay away from any of the camps with an exposed weapon. I'm sure they had stuff in cars, but they didn't have anything out, so they didn't have anything to shoot at. But as soon as you were two, three blocks away from the front gates of either Snake Pit or Hurricane Point, you were shot at the whole time. There was it never stopped. And now I know you had been in combat before, but probably most of your guys had not done significant engagements until April 6th.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Do you kind of remember what it felt like after you dropped off the wounded and got back back to Hurricane Point and started getting everything back together for the night? Do you kind of remember your platoon's feeling and sentiment and what what happened?

SPEAKER_01

They were exhausted. And me being me. I was like, we ain't doing shit. I want the guns clean. So I separated. I want gunners, get the guns clean, replenish ammo on all the gun trucks. Like I I I was just down, I was just down to business again. Right, right. Because I was taking on the bigger picture. I didn't, I didn't have time to feel any sympathy

April 6 Firefights Across Ramadi

SPEAKER_01

for anyone. I was just my mind was just the next mission. What's next? Let's load up the guns, let's clean our cruise first, clean our personal weapons, let's get some child, let's eat. All right, let's find out who's gonna be on watch, who's gonna be get some rest, and everything. Like that was that was my mindset, and I felt like they saw it, and everybody, including Candy, Williams, they all followed suit. They were they were on board. It is as if like the prophecy, whatever it is I was trying to prophesize, can you like see? I told you so. Yeah, yeah, but I didn't have to tell him. I uh I don't know. No, no, no, I know it was as if it was as if they were ready because everything that I was doing was to get everybody ready for that moment.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Now I'm curious. Do you remember sleeping on the sixth?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Because I was like, 'cause I was uh during the initial invasion in no fall, artillery was going, gunfire. I was I was asleep. I'm like, I'm gonna again. Yeah, I remember sleeping.

SPEAKER_03

So the only reason why I ask is because I don't sleep. I still don't sleep. I sleep very little. Um, never have. It's since I was like 12, 13 years old. But I met you after everything, uh, same thing. I was trying to get everybody to do everything and clean up the trucks and and re-outfit because I knew this wasn't done. I knew for sure we were gonna get in another leather gunfight. I didn't know if it was gonna be the next day or the next two days, but clearly the enemy wasn't done. Uh, me and you met in the battalion CP at about three in the morning, and we were going over the map with one of the majors. I don't remember who it was. I think it was Major Wiley, not 100% certain. And uh, that's the only reason why I asked, because I was wondering if you remember sleeping, because it was the middle of the night, literally the middle of the night. It was like two, three in the morning. And uh yeah, that that was one of my that's like one of my most vivid memories of you is me and you going over the map, and you're being like, Yeah, we got shot here and here, and I'm like, Yeah, we got shot here, here, and here, and like going over everything and taking notes and like, all right, well, we'll see you tomorrow. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I don't maybe I did, maybe I did not, but yeah, I think I slept.

SPEAKER_03

And you probably did right after that. It was probably, you know, it was whatever. So the next day, the seventh was no different, right? There's tons of gunfights, but it didn't start until like nine or ten in the morning. So you still probably slept, right? Even if you slept from four till ten, that's six hours of sleep. That's great. But the next day you were the first out the gate again. Do you remember anything on the seventh?

SPEAKER_01

Nah. It was just a blur.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. It seems like all the days just went into each other.

SPEAKER_03

Right. So I was just curious if you felt any different, especially with your guys since you were in charge of the gunners. Everybody had popped their cherry on the sixth, and so they kind of knew that they knew the drill by the seventh.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That was what I noticed between my guys from the sixth and the seventh. They were doing good on the sixth, but they were shooting a lot of bullets. On the seventh, the lethality went up a hundred percent. They were they were hitting a lot less ammo, but a lot lot better shots. They were a lot more calm and a lot more organized.

SPEAKER_01

Well, keep in mind, like all the trending and everything, reality kicked in.

SPEAKER_03

Right, very much so.

SPEAKER_01

Like it's it's one thing to sit there and telling them what's gonna happen, then the other for them to actually experience it. Yeah, yes. Then once they experience it, they're like, all right, like you said, cherries popped. Yeah, we know exactly what to expect. Yep, we can we have split seconds to identify phenompho, we can make that decision. Yep, we could and the the difference in in in uh on the seventh was they started using children.

SPEAKER_03

So I remember that too. I did not see that on the sixth, but I definitely saw armed women and children on the seventh.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, they were used, they were using children, and they knew that, and nothing to children. Come to find out that the family will held our stage, and if you don't go out there and shoot them, then your entire family dies. Yep. Yep. That's exactly what they did because they knew that you know they watch us and we watch them, but they knew exactly that we would never pull the trigger at a kid. Yep. We would never pull the trigger at a woman. And they use that, they use that vulnerability against us. But then again, the tough choice that we had to do was if they were armed, they're an enemy. If they were armed, not just if they were armed, if they were armed, but then pointing at us, then they're they're an enemy.

SPEAKER_03

Very much so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because I tried I've I've seen seven, eight-year-old kids with a with a gun in their hand. I I I looked at him, but I didn't do anything. I didn't pull the trigger. But the moment I would see a weapon go up, then it was a different different story. Yep. So those were like decisions that we would make on the fly. Again, the appreciation for human life. That's the one thing. If there's anything that I want to stick out in that interview in this podcast, is the appreciation for human life. Like I've come and made my peace with God and understand that whatever my purpose is here,

April 7 Hard Choices Under Fire

SPEAKER_01

at least I've come to appreciate life. And I think at the end again. And later on, we come to find out like not everybody were our enemies.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_01

There were a lot of nice folks in the town. Some that fed us, we sat down, we moved helmets, ate, ate bread, ate meat. I love the meat. Or like the chicken cooked underground. Yeah. You know, like we I got to try the culture. Not not everybody hated us, but you know that's the thing that I I I mostly get out of it, is your appreciation for life.

SPEAKER_03

So, with some of the cultural aspect, did you uh did you get to participate in any of the meetings at like the government center? Is that that's kind of what you're talking about? Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's good. Not just that, like sometimes when we're on patrol, some families will invite us. We like sit there in the courtyard eating, yeah, drinking, try.

SPEAKER_02

Did you end up picking up Arabic while you're over there?

SPEAKER_01

Uh no, the only Arabic that I whatever is enchi, enchi.

SPEAKER_02

Like go away, go away, yeah. Yeah, uh huh.

SPEAKER_01

Go away, you know, the basic salah watercom, one com sala. Wide wide tahna, tahna just the basic, you know, about yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, shifting off the combat a little bit. Um, what did you do in your downtime? I mean, I know you exercised, but outside of that, what else did you do to keep yourself sane?

SPEAKER_01

Or during that diploma, right before I left, I had met this wonderful woman who's now my wife. Nice. Um, we were writing letters back and forth. And I think that's what like helped calm me, looking forward to the next letter I'd receive. That's what I did, and then we used to hold uh what's what's that game called? Little uh what's that game called? Grief.

SPEAKER_04

Describe it.

SPEAKER_01

Halo. We used to play Halo.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We had the Halo, Halo Tournaments, uh-huh. Halo tournaments. Um, yeah, those were the fun game. Command and Conquer. Commend and conquer, right? Playing Command and Conquer.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Like, oh, you know, that was like the big thing playing Halo, working out. Matter of fact, a few times I did some gas masks on until um first Sergeant uh Mac. It was like Sergeant Lotion, leave those mans alone. You know, not to make fun of his laugh, but I remember that's uh that's how that's how you laugh.

SPEAKER_03

Such a great man, yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_01

Such a great man.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you guys always had like big group activities too. Uh, some of you guys played basketball. We played dodgeball by your hooch a bunch. You guys had golf clubs, you guys had all kinds of stuff, man.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we were trying to hit blue diamond, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yep, that's right. Uh and so you said you're writing your soon-to-be wife. Uh, did you guys get married right after the deployment?

SPEAKER_01

No, we got married in uh 2008.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, nice, so not not too long after then, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So came back from that diploma in O Fall, went to Drewfield January, did three and a half years on Depot, then went to 1 1, did uh two diplomas with them, then went to uh Verdeza, Maryland, spent a year there, and then got out. Um, because I remember when my son was born, actually before that, uh Deza, you know, the NIH is right across from Badezda.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They were working on the latest and greatest modular prostatic lambs, connecting nerve endings to uh circuitry, to veterans who lost a lamb or arm to be able to manipulate lambs and everything. And I asked one of the guys, hey,

Letters Home And Life After War

SPEAKER_01

what do I need to do to be able to do that? It's like, oh, you go to school, become an electrical engineer. I'm like, okay. Then what then I made my decision? I'll go back to school, be an electrical engineer. My wife gave birth, went back to the hospital, you know, holding my son, and I tell her, hey babe, um, I think I'm gonna get out. She's like, Oh, okay. And she asked, What are you going to do? I said, Oh, maybe we go to school. She's like, For what? Electrical engineering.

SPEAKER_00

She said, Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I'm like, okay. And then I got out, went back to Camp Pendleton because well, not Camp Pelanton, went back to California because she uh was homesick. She's a California lady. So went back to California and the rest of the history. Went to community college, went to uh San Diego State. Nice. And the rest of history, like a lot of the uh guys, matter of fact, a lot of the guys are successful, you know. You have late them, he's like a doctorate, it's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like it's what what I'm I'm curious because you're also very successful, and a huge chunk of the guys from weapons company are do you uh what is your take on that? Why do you think so many of these guys? Uh a lot of guys did real well. Um, we produced quite a few sergeant majors, we have quite a few people who are professionally successful, uh, people who are high-ranking cops, high-ranking firefighters, a lot of stuff like that. A couple of them have ran for office and and successfully been voted into office.

SPEAKER_01

That experience we uh operate on wavelengths. We at that time shared the same wavelength for success. We the success for us was to bring everybody back home alive. It's like I don't know, it's uh something about that deployment that it unlocks something in us, and guys were just hungry, they they're they're seeing something that don't want to go back to it, and that was a way maybe for us to block out the noise, block out the signals that we experience during that deployment.

SPEAKER_03

You're the first person to say that, but that's actually a really smart way to put it. I I I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_01

Because we we we shared this experience that we shared, it's like it's all interconnected, we are all interconnected with one another. And mind you, and mind you, that interconnection like you put all that energy together and we get redistributed to like do something great with ourselves. So I'm maybe I'm not articulating it well, but no, you are.

SPEAKER_02

Well, no, no, actually, I've heard quite the opposite. Yeah, no, I've you're you're you're saying it in a way that I've never heard before, but I definitely don't disagree with. I I find it I I I like what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But remember, we we all operate on frequencies. That's why when you go out, you could sense that there's a bad vibe, or somebody's not is not is not genuine. You you sense that frequency. There's a disturbance in the frequency, you tend to stay away. And I think we've unlocked that somehow. Subconsciously, we've unlocked that.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm gonna be chewing on that for a while, my friend. That's uh that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but but that but with that with that frequency, you only associate yourself, you only find people that share that same wave and that same frequency as you. If they're not on the same level as you, you you don't associate yourself with them. You only want to be associated with yourself with people that are going to make you better, and you want in turn make people around you better. People around you, people migrate to you because they want to be better, they want to be good. And if someone like you give your time to people, but you can only lead the horse to the water, you're not gonna freaking sit there, shove the pipe in the horse's mouth water in their mouth. Like, if they don't want it, at least you did your part, you move on to the next thing. You don't we just don't have time to waste. Because we understand how valuable every day is. It doesn't matter. Like, I can get in my car, get into a wreck, and then I'm done, then that's it. I'm gonna meet my maker. But it's all about frequency. That's to me that that that experience, April, April 6th, April 7th, something shifted for us. And that shift it still has to do. It's still a benefit, I I guess. Like it brought it it it brought something, like it cannot be explained.

Success, Frequency, And Coming Back To God

SPEAKER_01

But it brought something, just like me, for example. I mentioned to you that I lost my faith in God. But one day I just sat there and just started talking to him again, and he responded to me. He responded to me, and I come to understand that I spent quite a bit of time trying to run away from him, but he was always there. All I had to do was turn around and reach, and he grabbed my hand. But again, again, that's that frequency. I think maybe we share that same frequency. He's been there all along.

SPEAKER_02

I appreciate you sharing that perspective, man. That was the I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, not everybody gets that, not not everybody gets spiritual. I guess that's the easiest way to put it. Plenty of people have gotten deep, not a lot of people have gotten spiritual, but you are about the third person who has said it in a different way, where they said, I stopped talking to God on this deployment and I picked it back up later. And uh I I find that I find that an interesting thing where you know, you hear that old phrase that I don't know, it's been around since probably World War I, where it's you know, there's no atheists in foxholes. And I I don't know, I tend to disagree. I I saw a lot of people who were like, I don't know what, you know, I don't know, they'd say crazy stuff like, I don't know what God would let this happen and stuff like that. And then you find out, you know, you think you think later and you're like, well, I don't know, man. And it's a just like you said, there are plenty of coincidences, occurrences, feelings, vibes, just like what you said, that that are unique enough to where you definitely felt something, religious or otherwise. And uh, and it's good that you found uh you found your tune for it, man. That's uh I like it. I like it a lot. Thank you. Well, I don't even know where to go from here. Is there anything else you'd like to share? Because I I I I could ask you some other questions, but it almost seems not genuine once you go the spiritual route.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I got nothing else, man. I I do appreciate you reaching out. Thanks for speaking to John Mark. He he he is right. I do screen my I do screen my calls.

SPEAKER_03

So I'll tell you the here's the the part two. This is my second uh Deverson Lachard memory. And I said, I don't know if he'll want to talk to me because uh the last time we spoke at great length, we were shouting in each other's faces about where to park the Humvees. I don't know if you remember that at all. But that it was the middle of the summer, it was about 130 outside, and our vehicles were parked on the street because we were next up. Your guys' vehicles were parked next to the hooch, but you wanted the uh the driveway open. And rather than just asking us to move the vehicle, you came over and screamed at me. So I screamed at you, and we screamed at each other for like about 15 minutes before multiple people got in between us. And I was like, I don't know if he remembers that, but if he remembers that, he may not ever want to talk to me again. I remember we again, we were both sergeants, we both had strong personalities, and so uh those kind of things happen all the time in the Marine Corps. But I I remembered it and I remember laughing about it later because it didn't mean anything to either one of us. We were both just trying to do what was right for the platoon, but that's what I told John Mark is that I was like, he may not want to talk to me. I think I called him a lot of names, and he called me a lot of names, so uh just remember, man, other I at that time we again we just wanted to chill.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, that's all it is. We like came back from a patrol, whatever the case is, and we just wanted to get out of the sun. And emotions are high, we're very irritable, dehydrated, then poverty, then freaking go to the gym or release stress, whatever the case is. Sorry, man, I apologize.

SPEAKER_03

It's it's 22 years later, and I don't hold it against you in any way. Uh to me, now this this is just me, but uh I always felt like because we literally lived next to each other, but also we trained together so much before and after that deployment, I always felt like map two and map three were ultra close. We were very intermingled. We were always in each other's hooches, we were always talking to each other, always playing games with each other. And uh you were talking about wavelengths and vibes. I don't feel any different now. I feel

Old Arguments, Real Brotherhood, Closing

SPEAKER_03

like I haven't seen you in 22 years, and you know what? I if I saw you tomorrow, I would sit down and I would I would talk to you for more hours about anything. Yep. I I weirdly miss you, and I'm I'm glad to see you, and I'm really glad you came to share.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01

I do appreciate you both, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_03

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Appreciate you, my friend. Thanks. If you like what you heard, make sure you subscribe for future episodes on your favorite podcast service.